White Dragon
How Much Influence Does Taekyun Have On Taekwondo?
It has been said over and over that one of the original martial arts predating Taekwondo in Korea was Taekyun (or Taekkyeon) and that this martial art had a dramatic impact on the development of Taekwondo. I personally do not believe this to be true. I think the only influence Taekyun has on Taekwondo is a similar sounding name, a desire for a Korean-specifically identified martial art, and the emphasis on using the legs to get the job done.
It has been said that General Choi came up with the name Taekwondo. Other people argue it was his assistant who had a Korean dictionary and suggested the name and he decided it sounded good and presented it to the Korean government for acceptance on the Korean style of martial art. Whoever came up with it, General Choi claimed he created the name and invented Taekwondo. This is why people in the International Taekwon-do Federation call General Choi the Father of Taekwondo. Choi seemed to want an absolutely newly created martial art and to be given credit for inventing it. He promoted this suggestion and got the name Taekwondo accepted. It has been said General Choi promoted the name Taekwondo because it sounds like Taekyun and it promoted a culturally Korean martial art. Originally, the Korean government rejected the name “Taekwondo” and instead suggested the actual use of “Taekyun” for the martial art which was being unified and formalized. Choi rejected the use of Taekyun and kept insisting on Taekwondo. This shows a denial of wanting to be considered the ancient Korean kicking “martial sport” of Taekyun and be something different. Choi later decided to spell Taekwondo with a hyphen (Taekwon-do) in order to differentiate his Taekwon-do from the KTA Taekwondo when he branched off and founded the ITF. As far as Taekwondo moves actually being based on Taekyun, I do not think much of them were. But it is possible some might have been; very few though if any at all.
Here is a video I found demonstrating Taekyun with a little information about it.
From the information in that video Taekyun is simply a leg kicking and tripping game. Sort of like folk wrestling, but only folk kicking and tripping. The instructor in the video explains they only use the flat part of their foot in order not to hurt each other as much. Barely any use of the hands is apparent except for countering and using them to push and pull people off balance, or leg catch and trip. This game seems to be about how many times you hit with the flat part of your foot on certain parts of the body as well as how many times you can cause the person to go off balance and fall. This seems like it is hardly a combat system, and more of an aggressive game. Is it a martial art? Possibly, many techniques are useful from wild angled kicks to the tripping, but the idea not to harm the opponent is not very martial.
Taekyun looks like a sport that takes a lot of skill to master and be good at. The movements are somewhat combative only to a minor degree simply because the intent to destroy or harm is not there. I guess technically it is a combat sport and thus could be considered a martial art much how Judo is a sport but also a martial art. But for Judo you can at least choke, slam people as hard as possible, and joint lock to cause pain. The intent to destroy your opponent is inherent in Judo. Taekyun seems like the intent is just to slap people around and trip them.
I see various techniques that are pretty useful with the leg catching counters and tripping. Much of that is useful in combat. Some of the wild angles of the kicks are also pretty cool and one could decide to use them to knock people out if one chose to. Also modifying them to hit with every part of the foot and not only the flat part would make it more combat oriented. Some moves I could see used in self defense, but the attitude is not there.
In the fact that Taekyun is a sport, as well as Olympic Taekwondo is a sport, you could say the idea of Taekyun influencing Taekwondo is true in that sense. Since most of all Korean grandmasters and important people in Taekwondo, even in the early stages, heavily promote the WTF Olympic sport Taekwondo sparring. Sometimes it seems more so than the self defense aspect. In this way Taekyun and Taekwondo are similar, but according to technique one would be led to think they would be similar in practice. Taekyun emphasizes more takedowns, legs trips, leg pushing with the foot, kick catching, sweeps, even minor throws, more so than impacting kicks. On the other hand WTF sparring allows absolutely no kicks below the belt and not trips or sweeps, yet it allows body punches. One would assume Taekwondo sport would emphasis similar techniques as Taekyun but it doesn’t.
It is obvious Taekwondo techniques look more like Japanese Karate than anything resembling Taekyun. I would have thought that in the early stages of Taekwondo many of the experts and founders would have wanted to include more leg kicking, tripping, foot pushing, sweeping type of movements and kick catching since Taekyun uses it so much. Even if Taekyun was an ancient kicking sport/game these techniques would have made Taekwondo even more incredible. I do believe that Taekwondo itself does have sweeps, trips, throws, kick catches etc., but more of these techniques in Taekwondo are definitely historically in the linage of Karate techniques. Whoever came up with WTF Sport rules for the Olympics clearly left out any rules pertaining to Taekyun, thus distancing what little Taekwondo was influenced by Taekyun even further. If Taekwondo would want to appear influenced by Taekyun maybe the WTF should come up with a way to allow low kicks and leg sweeps. Or the Kukkiwon should emphasize them a lot more. By all means the Karate influenced low kicks, sweeps, trips are good in themselves but adding some of the Taekyun techniques would also be pretty beneficial to all Taekwondoin and even strengthen not only Taekwondo itself, but even Korean cultural pride in the martial art.
I personally believe Taekyun has effective techniques, but only if you take them out of a game mindset and use them for the purpose of hurting an enemy who is attacking you. Yet, I think Taekyun lacks serious combative application in many ways with hardly any hand techniques and lack of intent to kill in its attitude.
Enough of the history being promoted about Taekwondo and even Taekyun is flat out wrong. The idea of 2,000 years of martial arts from Hwa rang knights and other nonsense. But this does not mean totally and completely in no way did Taekyun influence Taekwondo. It seems it slightly did. At least the idea of it and desire to be Korean and kicking emphasis. And I heard Lee Won Kuk in the early days of Taekwondo’s founding was also a Taekyun practitioner at some point in his life.
I believe the link between Taekwondo and Taekyun has been embellished over time, but we cannot 100% reject its influence. But I would say reject 98% of its influence (my opinion). This is up for discussion and anyone is welcome to post about Taekyun in the comments or provide any deeper history, sources links etc about who knew Taekyun in early Taekwondo and if there is proof of its influence. If I had more proof and it was obvious I would have mentioned it in this article. This is another reason why I think Taekyun did not have the influence on Taekwondo people claim. I need more sources.
Feel free to discuss Taekyun, its influence (or lack thereof) on Taekwondo and Taekwondo historical facts in the comments!
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White Dragon is a 3rd dan Taekwondo Black Belt with over 19 years experience in the Martial Arts and head instructor of the White Dragon Dojang Martial Arts Training Program.
White Dragon Dojang 
I’ve talked with two Korean masters who began their training in Seoul in the late 1940s to early 1950s, both have denounced the connection that TKD came from Taekyun but both admitted that many older masters were quite proficient at Taekyun.
In 1955 when General Choi tried to get the name Taekwondo accepted by the governent it was denied and the name Taekyun was suggested instead, but Choi stubbornly refused to use the name Taekyun.
Also at one point you state, “It has been said that General Choi came up with the name Taekwondo. Other people argue it was his assistant who had a Korean dictionary and suggested the name and he decided it sounded good and presented it to the KTA.” He did not suggest the name Taekwondo to the KTA, but founded the KTA (the first time) in 1959 only after the government agreed on the name.
Thanks for those corrections and info I will update the article to mention that. But I am not a historic scholar of Taekwondo and the sources I read simply mentioned Choi as the first president of the KTA. I did not know he founded it. Did he found it alone and then people joined him? I was sure he was voted in as president. Also he had to present the name to everyone to vote on. That was my mindset.
What masters were proficient in taekyun besides Lee Won Kuk? Did ANY Taekyun techniques play into Taekwondo in any way or fashion? If some of them knew taekyun it seems that would influence some of their dojang teachers at least. Much like how Judo concepts were in Taekwondo hoshinsool since enough founding masters knew Judo.
The vote to name and unify the Korean martial arts took place in 1955, but they wanted it to be official through the government. The name was taken to the then president but was turned down. It took about four years and quite a bot of political play to get the KTA established and recognized by the government.
It started with multiple kwans and Choi, the main driving force, was voted president. But several kwans left the association when Choi moved to Malaysia around 1962. And the KTA pretty much disolved until Choi’s return 1965.
As far as who practiced the sport of Taekyan and incorperated it into their art, I wouldn’t have a list because I wrote off that theory as Myth quite some time ago and never delved into much research about it.
You said seceral masters were proficient in taekyun. So who were they? That is all im asking. Not who put it inside TKD.
Oh and while Choi was away im pretty sure the KTA was still the KTA, instead of Taekwondo it was Taesoodo instead. Korean Tasesoodo Association. How did it become nearly dissolved?
And was choi really the main driving force for all of Taekwondo? can he be given so much credit? I have heard it was a group effort.
White Dragon stated “But I am not a historic scholar of Taekwondo and the sources I read simply mentioned Choi as the first president of the KTA. I did not know he founded it. Did he found it alone and then people joined him?”
4 years after Gen. Choi was spreading TKD throughout the military he gathered the heads of the 6 early kwans, described or defended as the 5 original khans, all of which opened before the Korean Civil War, + the Military TKD Oh Do Kwan founded in 1954.
He represented both the CDK & ODK, with many ODK & CDK members involved, like Col. Nam Tae-Hi & Sgt. Uhm Woon-Gyu. The Moo Duk Kwan was represented by their founder GM Hwang Ki. The Jido Kwan was represented by Dr. Yoon, their 2nd KwanJangNim. The Chang Moo Kwan was represented by GM Lee Nam-suk, their 2nd KwanJangNim. And finally the Song Moo Kwan was represented by their founder GM Ro Byung-jik, who BTW is still alvie at 95 years young & received a presidential award in Korea this past September on the occasion of the official opening ceremony of the new TKDwon.
GM Hwang Ki quickly dropped out & this initial KTA was made moot as a result of military govt decree #6 which resulted in the Korea Tae Soo Do Association in 1961.
White Dragon stated: “What masters were proficient in taekyun besides Lee Won Kuk? Did ANY Taekyun techniques play into Taekwondo in any way or fashion?”
None is the best answer!
Gen. Choi made early claims when a connection was sorely needed to Korea’s past MAs that he trained in Taek Kyon. This was never independently verified & Gen. Choi himself backed off of these claims later on, when he then said he was told some stories & shown a couple of moves to bolster his confidence & frail physical constitution.
GM Hwang Ki claimed he learned what he claimed as an indigenous KMA from watching a man defend himself successfully against more than 1 attacker, when he was 7 years old. Then GM Hwang says he approached the man as a 7 year old child, asking for him to teach him & the man refused. So GM Hwang said he then learned from watching the man from afar.
So if you buy that I have a bridge in London I want to sell you, LOL!
GM Lee Won-Kuk made passing reference to it as well, but nothing indicates he had any at all involvement.
I never heard GM Ro Byung-jik claim that he learned Taek Kyon.
There is no direct connection to Taek Kyon for TKD.
Gen. Choi added in foot technique sparring to his ITF TKD syllabus to pay homage to this older Korean martial folk activity.
Naturally TKD emphasizes kicks & leg techniques, so that is something the 2 have in common & also both award more points for higher kicks, etc.
The govt of Korea didn’t actually approve the name TKD. Gen. Choi got the 1st Korean President Dr. Seung-man Rhee, PhD to write the new TKD name in Chinese HanJa, thus authorizing the new name. However only the Oh Do Kwan & those in the Chung Do Kwan following Gen. Choi used the name from 1955 to 1965. The civilians began using it in 1965, 1971, 1972, 1973 & 1978 or later.
Gen. Choi formed the KTA on Sept. 3, 1959 & was elected the 1st president.
The civilians formed the Korea Tae SOO Do Assoc. in Sept. 1961 after the 5.16 revolution which saw the military ruling junta order all social organizations to regroup, consolidate & re-register with the new military dictatorship.
I am pretty certain the KTA became the KTaesoodoA and was the exact same group just with a name change. Then Gereral Choi was mad and got them to change it back when he came back to Korea.
Also general choi is not the sole leader or founder of TKD nor is he the only one we should connect linage to. You give him way too much credit.
When I said Choi was the main driving force, I meant for using the name Taekwondo. Obviously the unification and founding of the original KTA (and later KTA in 1965) was a group effort, as I already stated several kwan were involved with the initial founding. I believe there are other people that had more involvement and sway in it than Choi.
As far as making the argument of “Korea Tae Kwon Do Association = Korean Taesoodo Association”, the way it was explained to me was that the original KTA was dissolved and replaced by the Korea Taesoodo Association. The latter of which was officially recognized by the government in 1962. Meaning it was not simply a name change, but rather a separate entity.
And finally back to the topic of Taekyun, I don’t remember the names off hand and don’t have them recorded because I don’t connect Taekyun to Taekwondo, but I can try to dig up that info again for you. 🙂
Ohhh ok I get it. He was the name labeling and sort of political driving force, not the technique and skill driving force. And yes it was a group effort.
So for the KTaekwondoA replaced with the KTaesoodoA as in all of the board members were replaced and reformed? That is interesting.
Well for me I take all of the kwan leaders and high instructors and whatever martial arts they previously studied before the TKD unification and say in a way these styles do make up Taekwondo. Varies from kwan to kwan.
Hwang kee of moo duk kwan, choi hong hi of oh do kwan, lee won kuk of chung do kwan and ro byung jik is all said to have practised taekkyon in their yuths. In ro byung jik of song moo kwans case the experience is said to be limited. Hope that helps:)
Great! Thanks! Good info to know. So several people are said to have trained in it. I wonder how we can know if they trained in the historic style or simply just made up a modern copy of it? I think most Taekyon is a re-emergence of something viewed from history books and copying drawings and trying to reclaim and lost game or style Koreans used to play.
White Dragon says:
1) Ohhh ok I get it. He was the name labeling and sort of political driving force, not the technique and skill driving force. And yes it was a group effort.
1- Gen. Choi’s detractors like to smear him as not being a martial artist, but he was. he was also a highly technical person. However since he was a high ranking general, he was not in a dobok. He had non-commissioned officers & subordinate commissioned officers, his juniors to tackle the hands on day to day operations. Gen. Choi was highly educated, a founding member of the ROK Army, an Ambassador & leading member of society during these turbulent times. But please refer to any of the original Pioneers of TKD that assisted Gen. Choi & they all say to a person, Gen. Choi had the techniques & the order, but he had them work out the moves so he could watch & they could give him their feedback.
2) So for the KTaekwondoA replaced with the KTaesoodoA as in all of the board members were replaced and reformed? That is interesting.
2- The 1959 KTA (TKD) was the brain child of Gen. Choi. But he included the 4 other major leaders, who didn’t want the TKD name applied to what they were doing. 2 of these 4 leaders were 1st generation, like Gen. Choi. The other 2 were the 2nd generation leaders, students of the kwan founders. The 1961 KTA that settled on SOO (hand) instead of KWON (fist) was an initiative lead by the 2nd generation leaders who rallied around new common sports rules & were pushing the kwan founders or 1st generation out.
3) Well for me I take all of the kwan leaders and high instructors and whatever martial arts they previously studied before the TKD unification and say in a way these styles do make up Taekwondo. Varies from kwan to kwan.
3- Yes this is accurate!
Kukki Taekwondo was 1st called Tae SOO Do & was a group effort lead by 2nd generation leaders.
The original TKD began in the ROK Army under Gen. Choi’s leadership & became known as Military TKD. Gen. Choi was a 1st generation Kwan founder & had many talented soldiers who were 2nd generation leaders under his command, mostly from the Chung Do Kwan, who helped him create Chang Hon Taekwon-Do, which became the ITF after they left the military. The original TKD or 1st KMA to continuously apply the TKD name as the label for what they were doing NEVER used the Tae SOO Do label!
MesYang88 says:
1) “When I said Choi was the main driving force, I meant for using the name Taekwondo. Obviously the unification and founding of the original KTA (and later KTA in 1965) was a group effort, as I already stated several kwan were involved with the initial founding. I believe there are other people that had more involvement and sway in it than Choi.”
1- Gen. Choi conceived the TKD name for sure. No serious scholar, historian or TKD leader refutes that. Those like Col. Nam Tae-hi & Master-Sgt. kim Bok-man who were there & part of the process confirm it. GM Kim laughs as the claim by GM Son Duk-sung & he knew him well. That claim has become an Urban Internet Myth. Think about it, GM Son claims he wrote the name down & gave it to Gen. Choi at the meeting. But he then authors 2 books, is interviewed numerous times over the decades & never mentions it & he names his books Korean karate! Come on! The naming only included the Oh Do Kwan & Chung Do Kwan. They were the only ones to use it. When you read the Modern History of TKD by Lee & Kang, they clearly show that in 1959 the others did not want to use the TKD name as that was what Gen. Choi was doing. However he had the political clout at the time to force them to accept it. It was again rejected in 1961, but Gen. Choi was busy with pressing military matters as a Major-General with 100,000 troops under his command. He supported the coup & now the mission was to stabilize their country. Then in 1962 he was pushed out of the Army & dispatched to Malaysia as Ambassador so the dictator could consolidate his power!
So the new compromise name of Tae SOO Do was voted on as they did not want the TKD label as that was Gen. Choi’s MA.
2) “As far as making the argument of “Korea Tae Kwon Do Association = Korean Taesoodo Association”, the way it was explained to me was that the original KTA was dissolved and replaced by the Korea Taesoodo Association. The latter of which was officially recognized by the government in 1962. Meaning it was not simply a name change, but rather a separate entity.”
2- The military coup often called the May 16 (1961) revolution made the 1959 K TKDAssoc. moot. The dictatorship issued military govt decree #6 which directed all social orbs to consulate, organize & reregister under the new dictatorial regime. They needed to root out corruption, as it became rampant under Dr. Rhee’s 12+ ear reign of autocratic control. They also needed to monitor the communists as they were & still are technically at war. The north was moving to take advantage of the transition & the U.S. Govt was most concerned that the new dictator was not a communist & would work with them.
Ok maybe among the most important thing for readers to consider & then understand is that Taek Kyon lacks any corresponding Chinese HanJa characters!
What does that mean?
Koreans speak Korean but often wrote using Chinese characters, called HanJa. Each character is like a picture, so in essence there is a picture for each word. For instance their is a picture character for hand = SOO (or SU) & a different character to depict a hand rolled into a FIST = KWON. 1 of Korea’s most famous King’s (Se-Jong) who Gen. Choi named a 5th Dan BB pattern after & south Korea puts on their 10,000 Korean Won bank notes, oversaw the creation of a Korean phonetic based alphabet. BTW Se-Jeong Tul the ITF BB Tul has 24 movements, with each move representing the 24 letters of their phonetic alphabet.
So when Koreans point proudly to Taek Kyon, they do so as they believe it is a Korean indigenous physical folk activity. If it was passed on form China, the Chinese would have HanJa characters for it.
The MAs of the past were mostly used in the military. With advances in weapons & gunpowder the use of MAs fell. There were no Dojos or Dojangs on the civilian side. That began to appear in Japan during the 1880s when Dr. J. Kano incorporated some Judo into the school system in Japan. Funakoshi Sensei did something similar with his karate in the 1920s when he moved to mainland Japan from Okinawa & taught in their school system. Soldiers returning home after serving in the Wars of those regions brought back with them these Eastern Arts. Judo was already in the USA as President T. Roosevelt was a judo man at the turn of the 19th into 20th century.
Koreans studied JMAs in Japan, along with some minor CMA influence. From these early Korean Karate Kwans came the 2nd generation leaders who would go onto create Kukki TKD, the WTF or Olympic TKD. But to be honest, early on, whether on the civilian side or the military side under Gen. Choi, all that was being taught was basic karate. These Koreans over time developed additional ideas, techniques, ways of doing things & were very innovative. Their efforts made 2 major kinds of TKD.
However 1 major problem existed: They all had roots in karate.
1 Solution: Fabricate stories that TKD was 2,000 years old, throw in Taek Kyon to spin people’s heads, confuse the issues & solve the problem by saying now this ancient KMA has a new modern name & it is TKD, that they turned into an Olympic Sport.
Really when you think about it, they were so very successful!
But Taek Kyon has little to do with TKD!
😉
Just as an aside, their is present day scholars digging on the roots of Taek Kyon & some are finding that even this supposedly indigenous Korean activity had a different Chinese name. But for purposes of this discussion, Koreans cling to Taek Kyon, as a way to bypass Japan & bring TKD to some connection with Korea’s glorious past……..
In the 1960s the 1st to attack the Koreans were the JMAs. Now with the internet most people who take the time to read, like this wonderful Blog, learn more of the actual facts!
😉
White Dragon says:
“Great! Thanks! Good info to know. So several people are said to have trained in it. I wonder how we can know if they trained in the historic style or simply just made up a modern copy of it? I think most Taekyon is a re-emergence of something viewed from history books and copying drawings and trying to reclaim and lost game or style Koreans used to play.”
Please remember that claims made were never independently verified, plus when examine what these people did you will see no evidence that it made it into their training & the Taek Kyon leaders all deny any direct Taek Kyon connection to TKD!
White Dragon says:
“I am pretty certain the KTA became the KTaesoodoA and was the exact same group just with a name change. Then Gereral Choi was mad and got them to change it back when he came back to Korea.”
Here is the exact lists & please take notice that there is not one 1st generation leader involved at all!
1959 KTA formed by Gen. Choi on Sept. 3, 1959 under the TKD name:
Gen. Choi – President
Dr. Yoon Gae-byung & GM Ro Byung-jik – VPs
GM Hwang Ki – Secty Genl
All the above where 1st generation defined as Koreans studying MAs abroad during the occupation period. The 2nd generation leaders defined as Koreans who trained in Korea at the Korean Karate Kwans that opened 1944 & after. These 2nd generation leaders were the driving force of the Korea Tae SOO Do Assocation formed as a result of the military govt decree #6 during a series of meetings held in Sept. 1961.
Standing Directors: Hyun Jong-myun, Lee Nam-suk, Lee Chong-woo, Ko Jae-chun & Lee Young-suk
Directors: Uhm Woon-gyu, Chong Chang-young, Bae Young-ki, & Nam Tae-hi
Auditors: Kim Soon-bae & Cho Byung-shi
The 1961 KTA was formed in Sept. of 1961 by 2nd generation leaders as a result of the dictatorship that took power May 16, 1961 whose decree #6 ordered all social orgs to reregister. They did so under the new compromise name of Tae SU Do. The officials were:
Gen. Chae Myung-shin – President/Chairman
Lee Chong-woo & Uhm Woon-gyu – Vice Chairs
Directors: Ko Jae-chun, Nam Tae-hi, Lee Yong-woo, Lee young-sup, Oh Se-joon, Ko, Hong-myong
Hyun Jong-myun, Lee Kyo-yun, Park Chul-hee, Ko Jae-chun & Song Tae-hak – Vice Presidents
Inspectors: Cho Soo-young & Lee Hui-jin
So then TAekwondo died….it ended in 1961 and did not exist. TAesoodo existed. Then Choi came back and re-created another Taekwondo, a second Taekwondo. Thats basically what you are saying.
That is why it is obvious the KTA was always the KTA even with a Taesoodo name. That is the true linage.
White Dragon says:
“So then TAekwondo died….it ended in 1961 and did not exist. TAesoodo existed. Then Choi came back and re-created another Taekwondo, a second Taekwondo. Thats basically what you are saying.
That is why it is obvious the KTA was always the KTA even with a Taesoodo name. That is the true linage.”
No no not at all! I never said that, never implied that. Maybe things are confusing as I have posted some much information that readers may not have been aware of or grasped that fully.
I have been trying my best to be very clear & I know I am consistent as I am dealing with facts as they unfolded.
1) Gen. Choi had a MA performance done to celebrate the 1st President of the ROK Dr. Rhee’s birthday in Sept. of 1954. This also coincided with the 1 year anniversary of the 29th Infantry “Fist” Division that Gen. Choi formed on JeJu Island, the “Womb of TKD.” Dr. Rhee was so impressed that he stated this should be taught to all the troops. Dr. Rhee called it Taek Kyon.
2) This provided motivation for Gen. Choi to come up with a proper name for the KMAs they were doing, which BTW they called Tang Soo Do, a term most likely conceived or applied 1st by CDK Founder GM Lee Won-Kuk, years earlier. An original TKD Pioneer that broke from Gen. Choi in the early 1970s has stated that Gen. Choi didn’t even know what Taek Kyon was. But he knew it wasn’t what they were doing as they were still doing basic karate & calling it TangSuDo.
3) Gen. Choi gets the ROK President (Dr. Rhee) to do a Calligraphy in the President’s own hand using Chinese HanJa characters, for it the President wrote it in Korean HanGul he would have written Taek Kyon. But since Calligraphy looks best with the more intricate Chinese Characters, the President complied & signed it with his Pen Name U-Nam. This provided the presidential authority for the new name of TKD.
4) At the meeting(s) to gain public acceptance by leaders of Korean society prior to the acceptance by the President, only the CDK & ODK were represented. So the others never used the name.
5) When Gen. Choi formed the KTA in 1959, all 6 of the early Kwans were represented. They did not want the name, as they were not involved in its selection, but Gen. Choi at that time yielded power & influence so he steamrolled them into accepting it.
6) All during this time Gen. Choi & his soldiers under his command were busy creating the 1st Korean Patterns, called Hyungs in those days. By 1959 he had completed 5, including 1 named U-Nam after the 1st ROK President’s Pen Name, which was part of how he gained the cooperation & support of the President.
7) In March of 1959 Gen. Choi led the 1st ever Taikwon Do demo team abroad. By the end of the same year he wrote the 1st book ever on TKD. It was in Korean & Chinese. They currently have a copy on display in the museum history section of the new TKDwon. In that book on pg. 3 or 5 is the President’s Calligraphy that authorized the name TKD.
8) 1961 saw the military coup start the dictatorships & series of 3 military generals that would rule south Korea until the early 1990s. By this time Gen. Choi & his team completed 6 Korean Tuls. In Sept. of 1961 the 2nd generation leaders, junior to Dr. Yoon, GMs Hwang, Ro & Gen. Choi formed the Tae SOO Do association. Gen. Choi at that time was busy stabilizing the country as the military junta ruled the nation. At that time Gen. Choi had 100,000 troops under his command. He did not have the luxury of being involved with the civilians & the direction they were taking.
9) In 1962 Gen. Choi was deployed on a diplomatic assignment as the 1st ever Korean Ambassador to Malaysia.
10) Tae SOO Do continues to make strides in Korea.
White Dragon says:
“So then TAekwondo died….it ended in 1961 and did not exist. TAesoodo existed. Then Choi came back and re-created another Taekwondo, a second Taekwondo. Thats basically what you are saying.
That is why it is obvious the KTA was always the KTA even with a Taesoodo name. That is the true linage.”
Now keeping in mind #s 1 to 10 in the previous post, this is the important response to your mistaken statement requited above:
In SK Tae SOO Do was taking hold. They had success entering it into the Korean National Sports Festival, the most prestigious sporting event in Korea. But that was the civilians. Tae KWON Do still existed in SK, but it was limited to the military & civilian Oh Do Kwan gyms that were now in existence.
1) Gen. Woo Jong-lim hosted the 1st ever TKD tournament, under what would essentially become ITF rules, using multiple categories of competition, just like today.
2) In the fall of 1962 Gen. Choi introduces TKD to Malaysia, making Malaysia the 2nd “Home of TKD”
2) In Dec. of 1962 Col. Nam Tae-hi, then a Major is officially dispatched to Vietnam along with 3 Army Captains who were Military TKD Instructors. 2 of them stay for 6 months, while GM Nam & a Captain stayed for a year. They were replaced & their numbers grew, even spreading to civilian gyms. There were almost 700 Military TKD Instructors officially deployed from 1962 until the war ended.
3) In the spring of 1963 retired Master-Sergeant Kim Bok-man & retired Corporal Woo Jae-lim were the 1st 2 civilian TKD instructors to go abroad. They were dispatched to Malaysia as requested by Gen. Choi. In July of 1963 they establish the Malaysian TaeKWON-Do Association.
4) In 1964 the Singapore TaeKWON-Do Assocation was set up.
5) In 1965 the Vietnam TaeKWON-Do Assocation was set up
6) Gen. Choi is elected the 3rd president of the Tae SOO Do association in Jan. of 1965 after he completed his diplomatic assignment & returns home.
7) In 1965 he completed his TaeKWON-Do book, the 1st ever English language book on TKD
8) In 1965 he obtains official ROK govt support for a Kukki TaeKWON-Do Goodwill tour sponsored by the SK govt that tours the world, laying the ground work for the ITF to be formed the following year in Seoul, SK (March 22, 1966).
9) On Aug. 5, 1965 Gen. Choi is successful in getting the name changed to TaeKWON-Do by a 1-vote margin.
10) The pressure & leadership style & tactics Gen. Choi used resulted in him being forced out of the KTA. While Gen. Choi succeeded in getting the civilians to adopt his name, TKD, he simply did not have the ability or power to get them to adopt his TKD, or the original TKD. So from this point forward there were now 2 TKDs. The original or Military TKD & the TKD that was called Tae SOO Do.
White Dragon says:
“Also general choi is not the sole leader or founder of TKD nor is he the only one we should connect linage to. You give him way too much credit.”
I simply believe it is honorable to give credit where credit is due. I have not been poisoned by the slander that has been spread about Gen. Choi because of his political opposition to the series of military generals & south Korean dictators that ran SK with an iron fist for decades! Nor do I drink the Kool-Aide that the ITF serves, as it is full of sugar & can rot your teeth.
I prefer to stick to facts!
The facts speak for themselves & I also respectfully suggest that when one discusses the history of TKD they 1st define which TKD they are talking about, as we have at least 3:
1- The original or 1st KMA to apply the TKD name continuously, aka the Military TKD which became the ITF
2- The sport TKD which was developed on the civilian side, called Kukki TKD (not limited to only sport) that is overseen by the World TKD Academy, aka KKW, that has been so successful it has become an Olympic Sport, 1 of only 2 Asian sports to achieve that coveted designation, also overseen by the WTF
3- The many Independent TKD groups, which seem to outnumber the above 2
Gen. Choi was no doubt the principle founder of the original TKD, that is often called Chang Hon TKD which is his Pen Name.
Gen. Choi had virtually nothing to do with Kukki or WTF TKD. In fact he was a throne in their side, fighting tooth & nail against their version of TKD getting into the Olympics, as he fought for his TKD style.
White Dragon says:
“So then TAekwondo died….it ended in 1961 and did not exist. TAesoodo existed. Then Choi came back and re-created another Taekwondo, a second Taekwondo. Thats basically what you are saying.
That is why it is obvious the KTA was always the KTA even with a Taesoodo name. That is the true linage.”
So as I clearly listed & explained, Gen. Choi & his followers NEVER accepted the Tae SOO Do name, nor did they apply it as a label for what they were doing. Gen. Choi & his team continuously applied the TKD name from 1955 forward, with no interruption or switch. The Military went straight from TangSuDo to TKD.
The civilians used names like TangSuDo, KongSuDo, Kwon Bup, HwaSuDo & SuBakDo. They then agreed in 1961 to a compromise that included a new hybrid name Tae SU Do. In 1965 they started to switch to using TKD as the label for the 1st time.
I hope this clear things up.
Please let me know if anyone needs further clarification or any expanded explanations.
Thanks
😉
Im really going to just have to disagree with you and say, “No Choi’s TKD is not original TKD or the only true root of TKD.” I would rather say, “Korean Karate styles is the root of TKD and Taekwondo and Taesoodo were the same thing with simply a name chnage.”
Yes Choi ran off and never accepted the name but all you are saying is Choi followers never accepted the name as if Choi followers are the end all of true TKD people. Sorry but the entire group of kwans are all real TKD and most peolpe accepted the KTA as the truth and that si where it went while choi did his own thing.
No matter how many paragraphs you post will not change this fact. Every single kwan 100% fully supports the Kukkiwon and WTF. ITF is its own thing outside of Korea. Military TKD is not special or much different than other kwan TKD, besides almost every Korean has to enter the military and learns whatever military combatives. ITF is not military TKD, ITF TKD is simply ITF TKD. Which group? there are 3 or more groups.
And just bc originaly tournaments used Karate style rules does not make it “The original ITF rules.” It just means they used shotokan-esque rules with head punches. You can thank the Jidkowan for actually making Taekwondo full contact which would never have happened with choi.
White Dragon perhaps it would be a bit more helpful to 1st answer a simple question:
Do you consider the ITF TKD or Chang Hon style of TKD that Gen. Choi taught as the same thing as Kukki TKD, Olympic Sport TKD or as some call it WTF TKD?
Please feel free to answer as you (or others) see fit.
As for me I will answer it here:
To me while all TKD shares many things in common, as do all MAs. However the 2 major (for lack of a better term) TKDs have so much that also sets them apart, they can be viewed to me as 2 different things, despite of the many overlaps that are clear.
White Dragon says:
October 26, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“Im really going to just have to disagree with you and say, “No Choi’s TKD is not original TKD or the only true root of TKD.” I would rather say, “Korean Karate styles is the root of TKD and Taekwondo and Taesoodo were the same thing with simply a name change.””
——–
No problem with disagreeing. I respect that!
😉
1- The Korean Karate styles produced the Koreans who would go onto create TKD, so we mostly agree on the roots.
2- Taekwondo & Taesoodo were basically the same thing (Kukki TKD in progress) & simply had a name change, so we mostly agree on this as well.
White Dragon says:
October 26, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“And just bc originaly tournaments used Karate style rules does not make it “The original ITF rules.” It just means they used shotokan-esque rules with head punches. You can thank the Jidkowan for actually making Taekwondo full contact which would never have happened with choi.”
——–
Again for the sake of clarity:
1) The tournament rules that would eventually become the framework for the future ITF rule set, were created by Major-General Woo Jong-lim. He may have been a Colonel then. Gen. Woo also served as chair of the Tae SOO Do tournament committee (Please see the Modern History of TKD). They were not karate like rules, as they were continuous sparring & had several categories of competition, just like the ITF rules from the onset, given there have been many modifications over the many decades.
2) In the 1960s outside of Korea, Koreans who moved abroad participated in karate tournaments as they were the only “game in town” so to speak. Those that competed like Hee Il CHO did well, as did their students. many credit it with the emphasis the Koreans put on kicking. But in the 1970s & early 80s the WTF rules started to take hold. Some Independent TKD tournaments still employ the old karate connected point-stop match rules. The ITF always had continuous sparring rules & 4-5 categories in their tournaments. Many don’t realize this as the ITF is the poor little minority, dwarfed by WTF Olympic TKD, which is front & center on the global stage!
3) We again agree on both the present day WTF rules came mostly from the Jidokwan, with GM Lee Chong-woo 1 of the main innovators AND that you are also correct that we never would have had full contact under Gen. Choi, as he & the other 2 1st generation leaders Dr. Yoon & GM Hwang Ki, broke from the sport focus & created the ITF (Gen. Choi) or SuBakDo (GM Hwnag & Dr. Yoon).
White Dragon says:
October 26, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“No matter how many paragraphs you post will not change this fact. Every single kwan 100% fully supports the Kukkiwon and WTF. ITF is its own thing outside of Korea. Military TKD is not special or much different than other kwan TKD, besides almost every Korean has to enter the military and learns whatever military combatives. ITF is not military TKD, ITF TKD is simply ITF TKD. Which group? there are 3 or more groups.”
——–
Finally & again, starting off with attempts to clarify:
Please understand that I use the term Military TKD as compared to Civilian TKD as early on, history shows us that there were several paths of development. 1 of these paths was started in the ROK Army by Gen. Choi. He used instructors & students of the Chung Do Kwan to staff the Oh Do Kwan he co-founded with Col. Nam Tae-hi, then a young Captain. On the civilian side there were 5 original Kwans that had spin-offs or annex Kwans.
So today yes there is TKD training & TKD teams in the ROK Military. But in the 1950s to the early/mid 1970s they followed Gen. Choi’s TKD. That changed when he fled for his safety to live a life in exile in Canada, where he became a Canadian citizen. From that time the training changed in the military. They also ordered all of Gen. Choi’s books to be destroyed! Thank goodness Col. Kim Soo-ryun, the Pioneer of TKD in Iran kept his & donated it to the TKDwon where they display it prominently.
So Military TKD was established by Gen. Choi, as was the ODK & the ROK Army MA Dept. in 1959. These soldiers would go onto eventually form the ITF in Seoul on March 22, 1966. Some of these same soldiers would also play vitally important roles in developing Kukki TKD & setting up the KKW & WTF, even operating under the Tae SOO Do label from 1961-5, like Sgt. Uhm Woon-gyu. Of course many of the solders would also go onto be Independent TKD as well.
But the Military TKD of the 1950s = ITF TKD
Also while the Kwans supported the KKW & unity movement, it was never 100%. Splits occurred in both the Moo Duk Kwan & Jidokwan, along with I genus by extension the Oh Do Kwan. MDK founder GM Hwang Ki & the 2nd KwanJang of the JDK, both 1st generation leaders did not agree with nor did they follow the sport focus of the 2nd generation. GM Hwang was harassed & had to sue in court & won both times. Dr. Kim Un-Yong came on board in 1971 & had laws, rules & policies out in place requiring licensing & registration with the dictatorship govt. They moved the BB cert process from the Kwans to the KTA & then to the KKW. Today many Kwans issue their own certs & many Kwan seniors speak out against the corruption of the KKW & WTF, along with the sport focus, as they also see TKD more as a MA.
ITF TKD is indeed in Korea. In the southern part it is very, very small. But there was some luck with 2 actual ITF WCs being held there in 2004 & 2010. The TKDwon will offer programs to ITF people as well. Of course ITF TKD is widespread on the north side of the divide. The WTF has been trying to get them to join as a Member Nation for sometime now. However 1 of the ITF groups is led by a NK IOC Member & he just signed an historic Accord with the WTF president in conjunction with the IOC president. So “the times are a changing” indeed.
Yes we agree again, as the ITF has split into 3 distinct groups all claiming to be “THE” 1 & only ITF. This is beyond sad & weakens ITF TKD for sure. But it is not surprising as Gen. Choi ran the ITF as a 1-man show. When the man leaves, chaos enters, as is evidenced with other man-centered MAs, like Shotokan Karate & Funakoshi Sensei. Then to add insult to injury, there are many more breakaway groups from these 3 ITFs or the original ITF all espousing ITF TKD, further weakening what is already the small, poor (money) minority ITF.
——–
I tried to break down each of your points so you or others could respond easier. I hope this helps!
Thanks
😉
White Dragon says:
October 26, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“Im really going to just have to disagree with you and say, “No Choi’s TKD is not original TKD or the only true root of TKD.””
——–
I need to state upfront I prefer clarity over agreement, LOL! 😉
Therefore I wish to make it clear I never meant to imply, nor do I think I posted it anywhere here that Gen. Choi’s TKD is “the only true root of TKD” & that is not how I fell at all.
(In fact I challenge anyone to find where I typed that, as I don’t believe it at all, clarity is vitally important, don’t ya think?)
Next I am not sure how you are defining original, but I offer this:
o·rig·i·nal
adjective
1. present or existing from the beginning; first or earliest.
I use the world original as an adjective to further describe. Since it is clear from the historical record who proposed the name, got it approved, first used it & used it continuously from 1955 to present, how can that not be considered as original?
How do you define original?
Is there another person or group was like the dictionary definition states “present or existing from the beginning; first or earliest”?
To me it is crystal clear & I am a bit perplexed as to why this is even in contention! 😉 Please just read the Modern History of TKD written by 2 Kukki TKD heavyweights. Read GM Lee Chong-woo’s own words from his April 2002 interview by Yook, a reporter from SK that appeared in 1 of SK’s premier publications.
White Dragon says:
October 26, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“Yes Choi ran off and never accepted the name but all you are saying is Choi followers never accepted the name as if Choi followers are the end all of true TKD people. Sorry but the entire group of kwans are all real TKD and most peolpe accepted the KTA as the truth and that si where it went while choi did his own thing.”
——–
Again we need to be clear:
I am not sure what you mean by Gen. Choi “ran off,” as he didn’t run off when they changed the name. He was assigned as the 1st Korean Ambassador to Malaysia & he was officially dispatched on that diplomatic assignment. He did not “run off” in 1962. When we look at history, scholars & historians will show that this was a common tactic that Gen. Park, the military dictator used to remove those in power that were not in his inner-circle, like Gen. Choi who had 100,000 troops under his command in 1961/2.
We agree that he “never accepted the name” Tae SOO Do.
Perhaps readers need to consider more closely what Gen. Choi & his followers or group were doing during the Tae SOO Do names, as they were still developing their style of TKD that they NEVER applied the Tae SOO Do label too, ever! They continued to develop their Chang Hon TKD, dispatch official TKD instructors abroad to teach Chang Hon or Gen. Choi’s TKD, even setting up official TKD national bodies overseas in at least 3 other countries that would later become founding member nations of the ITF in 1966, 7 years before the WTF was formed.
Again we agree that Gen. Choi “did his own thing” & since he was doing his own thing, doesn’t logic dictate that both the developmental path & history of that thing would be different from the “thing” the Tae SOO Do guys were doing on what I call the civilian side?
Hey so I have read your post and while karate did majorly influence taekwondo I must tell you in the taekkyon videos I have seen the aerodynamic kicking looked a lot like taekwondo. Also keep in mind that even if a martial art borrows from another system it will not borrow EVERY element of that system. Taekwondo borrowed the aspect of aerodynamic kicks from taekkyon as did kuk sool won,hapkido, tang soo do, AND taekwondo. Keep in mind that all the arts I have mentioned have taekkyon Influence. Go on YouTube and watch the videos with these EXACT titles: Korean martial arts taekkyon battle demo and Taekkyon 1:1 demonstration Korean martial arts. Then watch ginger ninja tricksters kicking samplers and you will see that there is evidence of taekkyons influence on taekwondo. And also watch this video with this exact title: Tang Soo Do demonstration world championships 2009 in Rotterdam. You will see that the kicking in that video is very similar to the second taekkyon video I listed. I did kuk sool won and we did spinning kicks jumping kicks and double leg kicks. Even on the KSW website it is said many techniques found in taekwondo can be traced back to taekkyon which is in the category of sahdoh musool(tribal martial arts). Also those who say taekwondo is 2000 years old IN A WAY are right. Evidence shows that the hwarang warriors who practiced taekkyon( I am NOT saying that taekkyon is an old version of taekwondo) were taught under the philosophy that taekwondo is taught today. Their code was: loyalty to your country,obey your parents,be trustworthy towards your allies, persevere in battle, and never unjustly take life. Aren’t these the values that modern taekwondo(the real stuff not that mcdojang shit) tries to instill in its students? I will say that the fighting style and name is 55 to 60 years old but the philosophy which is supposed to be the true essence of the art is 2000 years old. The hwarang did practice taekkyon NOT taekwondo. But they used it under the same moral principals that we do today. In conclusion taekkyon influenced taekwondos kicking arsenal while everything else was from elements of karate with some kung fu mixed in. And some of the original kwans did practice taekkyon. But in the videos I’ve seen, taekkyon seemed like a killing art when it was used for that purpose. In the video you put on this post, taekkyon is practiced as a game/spirt. But so is taekwondo. But does that mean that that’s all there is to taekwondo. Of course not. In sport many of the “martial” techniques are forbidden. But that doesn’t mean they are nonexistent. Also I highly recommend to you the book throws for strikers by iain abernethy. It talks about the forgotten grappling techniques of boxing karate and taekwondo. It is the perfect weapon in the war against taekwondo naysayers. I highly recommend you make a pist with all that I have told you but it’s your choice. Cheers:)
Hwa rang practiced sword arts. Also taekyeon is a kicking game and always was but it was also combat sport. The kicking game itself is a combat sport from ancient times. It was lost but is revived through historical societies who are reestablishing the cultural tradition. yes it works in fights for the kicks etc, but the areo kicks really are their own creations. Also GinerNinjertrickster or whatever his name is a mcdojang guy himself. Flying twisting areo kicks are not combat effective.
Ok first of all about gingerninjatrickster in one of his sampler videos in the description he specifically said that those flips and jumps were not for live situations and that they were just for testing one’s ability and for demos. Also I have read several books on taekwondo and in them they say the hwarang practiced many skills including taekkyon which did have combative purposes. Also when gingerninjatrickster made a tutorial on the jump spinning hook kick he SPECIFICALLY SAID that for demo purposes you jump high then kick but in a live situation do a small more effective jump spin. Doesn’t sound like something a mcdojang person would take time to explain. Also I don’t know alot about the ITF but just because there may be some who are kinda brainwashed doesn’t mean we should hold that against all ITF practicioners. And in fighting style terms taekwondo is relatively modern but with what I have found in research from both the internet AND books the hwarang did practice taekkyon in accordance with that moral code I stated before. And please understand that I have no animosity of any kind towards you and I am glad you see taekwondo as a martial art more than sport and I congratulate you on your efforts to make that known. Also yes taekkyon was also practiced as a kicking game but the hwarang would need more than swords to fight. But I do agree with alot of your other stuff. Taekwondo should be a martial art and a sport and not just foot fencing. And taekwondo teachers should use dobok and poomsae instead of kata and gi. And I am not trying to offend you. It’s just if someone asks me about the history I just don’t want to say I don’t know. But due to the loss of some history since the Japanese tried to supress every aspect of Korean culture, we probably may not know for sure. but let’s not focus on the past to the expense of now. Another reason for me trying hard to examine the history is that I was trying to find more differences between taekwondo and karate. And I want to be an animator and make a cartoon where taekwondo is a primary plot device. So I wanted to involve the history into it but without the Japanese or Koreans getting pissed off. So In conclusion yeah I get your point but GNT did say those things in the videos they were just for demonstration purposes only. But yeah if you have any way I can go about telling people about taekwondos history since it is relatively modern that would be appreciated. and also if you really want to prove taekwondo as a martial art I highly recommend that book throws for strikers. You will see that it describes how karate boxing and taekwondo have had grappling techniques in them but they are hardly ever practiced due to the emphasis put on making them sports. This is the very stuff you talk about so I thought that this may be helpful so you could make a post out of it. Also what exactly is kickboxing style sparring like at your dojang? Also I listed those videos because you said in this post that if taekwondo and taekkyon did have more of a connection to each other you needed proof. But yeah man keep up the good work:)
Th hwa rang were called “flower boys” which sounds pretty homosexual. Also it is actually understood they may actually have been gay court men and not actual warriors.
Much of the hwa rang history is made up and nonsense.
The fact is Taekwondo’s history is from Japanese occupation and not much before it. Read more of my blog articles and understand some of the ideas I present.
Also there is a research paper called “A Modern History of Taekwondo” look it up online its a PDF file. Its informative.
There is also a korean martial arts book that mentions all kinds of styles from ancient korea that were documented and practiced called Muyo To Tonghi or something like that. I forgot how to spell it but other posts on this blog mention it. lol
And thanks for posting and its ok to ask questions.
And right not all ITF individuals are idiots nor do they suck. But a lot of members of ITF are brainwashed, but not all.
Kickboxing is stand up fighting full range striking.
Sorry when I typed pist and spirt I meant to type post and sport.
Hey so yeah I have looked at some of these other comments and I see what you mean. I did hear about the whole one Of the grandmasters learned taekkyon by watching a guy ONCE use it against multiple attackers. Last I checked true martial arts training can’t be mimicked just by watching somebody . And I did hear how a teacher of his showed him some taekkyon since he was small and frail. But if he only learned a little then I can better understand your claim. Also when you said that aerodynamic kicks are their own creation then I think what you mean is that the idea of using the leg was something adopted from taekkyon BUT the actual taekkyon techniques weren’t really incorporated that much. But this kinda makes me glad because that means taekwondo introduced kicks that had NEVER been seen before, thus showing that it has become it’s own martial art and not another form of karate or kung fu. But yeah I see your point now but I just have 2 more questions. One thing I have heard about taekwondo is that even the hand strikes can be performed from jumps/spins. So my question is does karate have this characteristic do they have spinning backfist,hammer fist, spinning knife hand, etc. And two I know that in self defense doing a super jump high spinning 3 times kick is impractical but things like a 360 degree back kick or tornado crescent kick can be great with good timing, right?
Correct. Some spin or jump kicks work. But gingerninja whatever is a dork and he is mcdojo like kwonkicker.
Anyway yes Karate has spin back fists and jump hand strikes etc. Same as TKD.
Also much of TKD is influenced by karate and kung fu but it is still its own martial art.
Taekyeon I think has influence in theory and cultural identity and its ok.