Military Taekwondo Stock Footage From Vietnam War

        Taekwondo is a traditional martial art, but it grew up as a military martial art as well, not simply a civilian style. Special fores soldiers in Vietnam learned it. The following are various stock footage videos showing literal Taekwondo training in full uniforms as well as combatives practices. Check them out!

Taekwondo was about 25 years old in these videos. The above video shows the primitive techniques and movements that that been of courses tweaked, changed, and developed into better and more practical movements. But it is interesting to see wide stances, wide choonbi  stances and the standard Karate gi style doboks they are wearing. It looks very cool. Even special forces soldiers start out as white belts in Taekwondo and even perform the part. The Vietnamese soldiers are very small people and very thin as well due to growing up in such a harsh place in war torn Vietnam.

You will also notice that one some scenes they seem to be doing parts of ITF forms. This is because the O Do Kwan was still run by General Choi and the KTA still used some of his early forms to be used in the military kwan. Around 1965 Choi had been asked respectfully to remove himself from the KTA and was given permission to develop his ITF organization. So there was some crossover is forms and style going from this time to the ealy 1970’s until the Pal Gwe and Tae Geuk sets of forms were created. Later, the KTA and all kwan groups of martial arts fully committed and promoted the Kukkiwon and the WTF (including the Oh Do Kwan which was Choi’s kwan which he led in the military). So the Vietnam era of Taekwondo is part of both ITF and Kukkiwon/WTF history as it was sanctioned by the KTA to teach South Vietnam Special Forces as well as U.S. Special Forces Taekwondo combat.

Another very important thing to notice is the sign that says “Tae Kwon Do.” It is spelled simply as Tae Kwon Do, which could also be written Taekwondo. Many ITF people strictly spell the style name as “Taekwon-do” or “TaeKwon-Do” with a hyphen. They claim that is the only way to spell the martial art name. General Choi apparently added the hyphen in English for some reason. This shows that historically Taekwondo was not written with a hyphen and it is not important to do so. In original Korean language (hangul) there is no hyphen, and I believe, nor should there be in English.

At the end you notice the Korean black belt instructors kicking and punching the hanging bag. One is doing a toe kick with his round kick. The other guy seems to have some form of gloves on as he punches as well. You never saw that much in Taekwondo gyms in the 90’s when I started training. The primitive and outdated kicking styles are seen as well. For their time it was pretty impressive and this is when the US military and others were just figuring out the martial arts systems for their soldiers.

 I love this footage. It is white belts sparring. I notice a lot of front legged side kicks and some jumping round kicks. The military salute instead of bowing is also cool. The interesting stances and way they are holding their fists is unorthodox for today.

More white belts sparring. Very terrible technique, but they seem to be having so much fun and all smiles. It is horrible to think they may have to fight in the jungles of Vietnam later and end up killing people or getting killed themselves. Hope their Taekwondo training was good if the battle comes down to hand to hand.

Notice the US Soldiers, white men, in the background watching and taking photos. The dojang is very cool with artwork of fists and techniques and a sign that says Taekwondo.

Here is some wild and crazy hand to hand and close quarters combat techniques show with Vietnamese Special Forces. Man these special forces look so young, like cute kids and all smiles. The grappling, flying and throwing techniques are pretty flashy. It is also funny to see these Special Forces guys smoking so much in the background. Clearly it cannot help their Taekwondo and grappling techniques. At the very end of the clip it looks as if they were learning how to fall properly and keep their legs up in a defensive position for ground kicks and deflecting attacks. But I do not really know.

Here are some Army Ranger’s teaching new recruits. I believe it is a continuation of the above video. The trainees clearly have no clue what they are doing. Imagine these guys having to be taught all of these techniques so fast and then expected to use them in actual battle. These are breakfalling and rolling techniques.

I like this video a lot. It shows some basic knife defenses in a dirty and not so perfect looking way. A South Vietnamese combat instructor is teaching the young cadets about what it means “to kill or be killed.”

Well this is some proof that Taekwondo was a military martial art meant for serious combat including killing. Taekwondo grew up in the military where it developed further self defense techniques over time. It was primitive back then but still got the job done, now days it has developed into way more crisp movements and precise movements. Unfortunately, much of the serious nature of Taekwondo as a martial art has been lost due to pop culture and a politically correct mindset that watered down much of Taekwondo. But in the dark corners of the Taekwondo world there are still Taekwondo instructors and fighters like all of us who love Taekwondo and train for realistic combat and self defense.

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Comments
  1. G says:

    Awesome stuff! Thank you so much for posting this wonderful archival footage.
    Just a few points to clarify if I may:
    TKD began in the ROK Army under the leadership of Gen. Choi Hong-Hi. He named it TKD in 1955 & then obtained permission form the 1st ROK President, Dr. Rhee, PhD when Dr. Rhee penned the new TKD name in Chinese HanJa characters on a calligraphy scroll.
    At this point in time, only the Military was doing TKD, hence the term Military TKD. Gen. Choi also was the honorary director of the Chung Do Kwan, so they also embraced the TKD label. The CDK supplied many, if not most of the instructors for the Oh Do Kwan, the military gym system. The other Kwans were still using TangSuDo, KongSooDo, KwonBup & HwaSuDo as names instead of TKD.
    In 1959 Gen. Choi formed the Martial Arts Dept. in the Army & the Korean TKD Association. In March of 1959 he led the Military TKD Demo Team to Vietnam & Taiwan. The team was made up of members of the 4 Armed Forces of the ROK, Army, Marines, Navy & Air Force.
    In 1961 a military coup took place & all social organizations were forced to consolidate & reregister with the military dictatorship. The civilians did so under the new compromise name of TAE SOO DO, as they rejected the TKD label as that was what Gen. Choi was doing. So they saw a difference at that point & did not want to do TKD, as that was what Gen. Choi, the Military ODK & CDK were doing! Hence the original TKD was Military TKD which later became the ITF.
    In December 1962 Col. Nam Tae-Hi, then a Major in the ROK Army was officially dispatched, along with 3 Captains to teach TKD to the Vietnamese soldiers. He stayed in that assignment with 1 of the Captains for 1 full year. The other 2 Captains stayed for 6 months on that assignment. Hence Col. Nam is known as the father of Vietnamese TKD.
    Almost 700 Korean TKD instructors were officially dispatched during the course of the Vietnam Civil War. Many more taught I officially. This was all done under the guidance of Gen. Choi. The ROK Army created a TKD Manual in 1966, which was basically Gen. Choi’s 1965 book, minus the karate katas. ITF TKD remained the syllabus for the ROK Military until the 1970s,me hen Gen. Choi fled to Canada to live a life in exile, to escape political persecution as a result of his outspoken criticism of the military dictators. The Army ordered all of his books to be destroyed.
    The KTA had virtually nothing to do with the Military. The Military always did TKD from 1955, while the civilians did sport TAE SOO DO. the KTA was responsible for dispatching civilian instructors abroad, not the military. This was another sore point between Gen. Choi & the KTA civilians, as the ITF was dispatching instructors using Gen. Choi’s political connections to obtain permission.
    Lastly Gen. Choi started or cofounder the OhDoKwan with Col. Nam back in 1954 (April 1st) or 1953, depending on sources. However by this time Gen. Choi was an Ambassador & then a civilian, so the OhDoKwan was headed by HYUN Jong Myun as the second Kwan Jang, KWAK Byung Oh (Jak Ko) was the third, and BAEK Joon Ki was the third Kwan Jang for the Oh Do Kwan.

    Great addition & thanks again for sharing it!
    😉

    • White Dragon says:

      Thank you for reading and enjoying this article. Thank you for posting all of that info and I am sure people will read these comments.

      I would say I do not 100% agree with you that TSD was simply just a sport style. I do not think as a martial art Taekwondo has seperations from military to civilian. The martial art is a martial art, whether it is practiced by civilians or military. ITF does not have any extra or special things above the Kukkiwon technique wise. They are their own system and style which has different ideas than South Korean Taekwondo (Kukkiwon).

      The names whether Taekwondo or Taesoodo being used is irrelevant since it is all Taekwondo and combined into Taekwondo of what we have today. It was all the same style that simply went through a name change.

      I cannot give General Choi 100% credit for Taekwondo, he had his part but he did his own thing and annoyed many of his associates who asked him to serpate in an honorable manner and gave him permission to leave and start ITF full time while KTA stayed in Korea developing further without him.

      The KTA did approve some of General Choi’s forms for awhile in the early days as well but left them later when they created Pal Gwe and Tae Geuk and the black belt forms for Kukkiwon which WTF approves.

      ITF kept doing Chang Hon forms and General Choi made newer ones as well.

      So the Vietnam history of Taekwondo is not strictly ITF but it is both ITF and Kuwwion/WTF as well.

      Have a great day and thanks for viewing!

      • G says:

        White Dragon you are correct. I didn’t mean to imply that TAE SOO DO was just sport, as it was not. What I mean was that they joined around a new set of sports rules, originally mostly influenced by the Jidokwan. But in the Military they joined around the new Korean set of Patterns that Gen. Choi & the soldiers under his command were developing. Early on they were both pretty much basic karate, but their paths of development away from the Japanese influenced roots, grew differently, with different leaders who had their own focus, resulting in more than 1 style of TKD. However there is no question, no real doubt as to who conceived the name TKD & applied it 1st. That of course is the OhDoKwan &’the Military TKD,which was staffed mostly by the Chung Do Kwan, which was led by Gen. Choi as honorary director.

      • White Dragon says:

        Trye Choi is given credit as creating the name TKD, which is a very fine name we can all be proud of. Of course there is some critics who say it was his assistant who found the words TKD and suggested it to Choi and Choi simply took full credit, but that is up for debate. Creating a name is not the same as creating a combat style itself.
        Taekwondo was created by a lot of people at one time and it is great since no one can really dictate what we have to do. The Kukkiwon has a board of directors who vote for things. ITF seems to be a dictator type control of what will be allowed and it caused in fighting and now there are over 3 groups all claiming ITF and even filing lawsuits to each other.

        ITF had some good forms I like like hwa rang, Kwan Gae etc. I just dont practice it the ITF way with sine-wave because I think sine-wave is nonsense. Also the early way of ITF was also kind of sloppy and less crisp movements but over time people have performed them very strong and clean. So I guess ITF really did try hard to leave the Karate roots.
        Kukkiwon seemed to keep the Karate roots in the way they move but have further developed the stances to be more smaller and narrower which could be seen as leaving Karate roots, but still the movements in many forms are directly from Shotokan Karate.

        What is cool is the very early forms seemed to be identical to Shotokan and some were mixed moves from Shotokan put into 1 form. So you can see parts of forms many Japanese Karate styles practice inside Pal Gwe forms. And the even earlier forms seem to have multiple shotokan moves into 1 form just places all over. It is very cool.

        I do love the Kukkiwon black belt poomsae they are logical and look so clean in movement.

        of course I am a Kukkiwon guy all the way! So you have to forgive me.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says:
        December 3, 2014 at 12:54 pm
        “Trye Choi is given credit as creating the name TKD, which is a very fine name we can all be proud of. Of course there is some critics who say it was his assistant who found the words TKD and suggested it to Choi and Choi simply took full credit, but that is up for debate. Creating a name is not the same as creating a combat style itself.”

        1) You do realize that no historian or scholar gives credit to that urban myth. That was started when GM Son Duk-sung! who was formerly a close associate with Gen. Choi, parted ways. Gen. Choi was responsible for pushing him out of the Chung Do Kwan & replacing him with Sgt. Uhm Woon-Gyu in 1959. This was after Gen. Choi did not allow him to be on the historic 1959 Military TKD Demo Team which traveled to perform in Vietnam & Taiwan. Apparently GM Son told this story to some of his students on how he thought of them name & gave it to Hen. Choi at the meeting. This has no basis in fact & one even has to consider that GM Son wrote 2 books, using the Korean karate label in the title & never mentioned this in his own books or in any interview he ever gave! Historians, scholars, investigative journalist & other reporters have all conducted research & interviews of people there & have put that rumor to rest. It was probably more the result of hard feelings.

        “Taekwondo was created by a lot of people at one time and it is great since no one can really dictate what we have to do. The Kukkiwon has a board of directors who vote for things. ITF seems to be a dictator type control of what will be allowed and it caused in fighting and now there are over 3 groups all claiming ITF and even filing lawsuits to each other.”

        2) True Kukki TKD was created by a wonderful group. So was it for Chang Hon TKD & that group was led by Gen. Choi. He did lead like a general, with virtually no dissent & he did leave a mess when he died. The WTF & KKW did not miss a step when Dr. Kim Un-Yong was arrested, convicted, served time in prison & stepped down in disgrace, as they were not a 1-man centered orgs.
        Good points!
        But remember there are more than 1 TKD, so there are naturally going to be more than 1 developmental path, with slightly different histories, right?

        “What is cool is the very early forms seemed to be identical to Shotokan and some were mixed moves from Shotokan put into 1 form. So you can see parts of forms many Japanese Karate styles practice inside Pal Gwe forms. And the even earlier forms seem to have multiple shotokan moves into 1 form just places all over. It is very cool.”

        3) Same can be said of the ITF Patterns, with whole moves adapted & adopted into some of their patterns as well.

        “I do love the Kukkiwon black belt poomsae they are logical and look so clean in movement. of course I am a Kukkiwon guy all the way! So you have to forgive me.”

        4) Nothing to forgive! You should be proud of your TKD & your TKD heritage & lineage.
        I am!
        😉

      • White Dragon says:

        Thanks man. Its nice to talk to a rational person about Taekwondo.

        But for me I do hold the opinion that true Korean Taekwondo is Kukkiwon Taekwondo and has developed into the Korean way of Taekwondo. ITF is a foreign style developed in Indonesia by a Korean named General Choi who based his camp in Canada and more foreigners are members than Koreans in ITF. In KKW more Koreans are members than foreigners it seems.

        but then that does not all matter. I may not really like General Choi or ITF much, but I do not disregard the fact some ITF martial artists are very good fighters and have great abilities.

  2. G says:

    White Dragon says:
    December 3, 2014 at 12:25 pm

    “I do not think as a martial art Taekwondo has seperations from military to civilian. The martial art is a martial art, whether it is practiced by civilians or military. ITF does not have any extra or special things above the Kukkiwon technique wise. They are their own system and style which has different ideas than South Korean Taekwondo (Kukkiwon).”

    1) Yes for sure all styles of TKD are a MA & have many, many things in common. But there are in reality many different styles or systems of TKD. While all have things in common,they also are proud of the distinctions that they emphasize. So maybe this is a bit of semantics. I think the WTF & KKW have added many wonderful things that the ITF does not have, especially with their lightening fast kick & sniper quick stepping of footwork. It is probably best left to the eye of the beholder, LOL! But since there were in reality different paths of development, led by different leaders &/or innovators, we NEED to be CLEAR when talking about which group. Dr. Kimm He-young does it wonderfully in his 900 page book on TKD History, by labeling it military & civilian TKD.

    “The names whether Taekwondo or Taesoodo being used is irrelevant since it is all Taekwondo and combined into Taekwondo of what we have today. It was all the same style that simply went through a name change.”

    2) In Kukki TKD it may be not be relevant, as it did combine the Kwans into its movement. That is why they speak about the TAE SOO DO name coming before the TKD name. But that is simply not true. The facts are clear on the matter! It was only the Military that used the name TKD that Gen. Choi conceived as the label they applied to what they were doing, along with those in the CDK loyal to Gen. Choi. So the KTA, KKW & WTF may wish to downplay this, as they did not adopt the TKD name of Gen. Choi as a label until 1965 & later, 10 years or more after the Military TKD used the name continuously.
    Certainly you do not think that the ITF/Chang Hon style & the WTF/ Kukki style are exactly the same, do you? What about all the independents? So we naturally will have different paths of development that must all be recorded in history, right?

    “I cannot give General Choi 100% credit for Taekwondo, he had his part but he did his own thing and annoyed many of his associates who asked him to serpate in an honorable manner and gave him permission to leave and start ITF full time while KTA stayed in Korea developing further without him.”

    3) Gen. Choi does not deserve 100% credit, so you are correct. He was the principle founder of the original or 1st KMA to apply the name TKD he conceived to the system they were developing! There is no question about that at all! He also was not a 1-man show either, as he had many soldiers help him. He also had virtually nothing to do with the WTF or Kukki TKD. In fact he fought tooth & nail against that TKD getting into the Olympics! But we know how that went, LOL!
    😉

    “The KTA did approve some of General Choi’s forms for awhile in the early days as well but left them later when they created Pal Gwe and Tae Geuk and the black belt forms for Kukkiwon which WTF approves.”

    4) Correct & there were several attempts to mediate the mess by coming up with a formula mix of the different pattern sets, the ITF, KTA & Moo Suk Kwan, but sadly they couldn’t resolve their issues & we suffer because of it, still today.

    “ITF kept doing Chang Hon forms and General Choi made newer ones as well.”

    5) Yes Gen. Choi designed his 1st patterns in the 1950s & finished in the 1980s, around 30 years of thought & work. Many love them. He had a lot of help with great input from many talented KMAists.

    “So the Vietnam history of Taekwondo is not strictly ITF but it is both ITF and Kuwwion/WTF as well.”

    6) No actually the syllabus was changed in the mid 1970s after the War ended & after Gen. Choi fled to Canada to escape political persecution at the hands of the brutal military dictator(s) in control of SK. So naturally there were elements of Military TKD that made it into the KTA, KKW & WTF. But we have to remember the KKW was opened & the WTF was formed after the War ended. They had nothing to do in any direct way with the Vietnam War or teaching the Vietnamese soldiers. The 1st batch of ROK Military TKD instructors went to Vietnam in December of 1962, led by Col. Nam Tae-Hi, then a Major, who was co-founder of the Oh Do Kwan, a founding member of the ITF, 1 time Chairman of their Promotion Committee, their former VP, President of the Asian TKD Federation & a U.S. TKD group when he later moved to the USA.

    “Have a great day and thanks for viewing!”

    You do the same!
    Thanks again!
    😉

    • White Dragon says:

      What I meant was the KKW style and WTF of today can trace its roots back to the Vietnam war the same as any ITF person can. It is the same martial art developed over time, then it split up into various groups today. But tracing the linage you can say, yes that Vietnam combatives are part of all the TKD styles history because it was all KTA sanctioned and KTA went into KKW/WTF so its part of its history. Not that the KKW existed and directly voted on things. I did not mean that.

      Anyway I heard Taekwondo was used first for all the 5 kwans then KTA changed to Taesoodo and then General Choi came back and persuaded them to change it back. So TKD was used by everyone first then only Choi’s people for a time and then back to everyone again using TKD.

      I do think KKW style has superior footwork and kick combinations that ITF people typically lack. But ITF does have a focus on hands hitting the face in ways the Olympians do not train.

      But both styles as a martial art have hand techniques to his the face, kicking the legs and more. The txtbook of KKW also shows brutal striking. I really do think if you focus on Kukkiwon as amartial art you can be a complete stand up fighter and even fight kickboxing by using the syllybul face punches and training them instead of following Olympic rules. You can mix them up. If you take an MMA mindset you can use olympic techniques with the self defense ideas and be a good stand up fighter, capable of defending yourself on the streets or in any fight.

      but both ITF and WTF have their sport tournaments with rules. Both are lacking in self defense concepts if all you do is try to win tournaments and get medals and trophies. ITF and WTF sport sparring both look ridicuclous at times and ineffective, but parts of it looks amazing and effective. I just think both ITF and WTF rules equally ruin fighting for real self defense and limit Taekwondo’s overall techniques. But I still prefer WTF sparring over ITF sparring any day. Its just my preference. WTF has full contact and allows knockouts. ITF officially does not, all though some fringe ITF groups allow it but it is very rare and not at all truly ITF rules.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says:
        December 3, 2014 at 1:29 pm
        “What I meant was the KKW style and WTF of today can trace its roots back to the Vietnam war the same as any ITF person can. It is the same martial art developed over time, then it split up into various groups today. But tracing the linage you can say, yes that Vietnam combatives are part of all the TKD styles history because it was all KTA sanctioned and KTA went into KKW/WTF so its part of its history. Not that the KKW existed and directly voted on things. I did not mean that.”

        No not really as you appear to be confusing certain things. Yes of course there were Korean soldiers in Vietnam teaching that later became part of the KKW or WTF TKD Olympic sport movement. There should be no doubt about that.
        But the point is that in Vietnam they were teaching what would become ITF TKD, namely the ChonJi patterns that are known as Chang Hon TKD. That is plain as day. Maybe you never saw the 1966 ROK Army TKD Manual. It is an almost exact duplicate of Gen. Choi’s 1965 book on TKD, the 1st ever English book on TKD. There is no question about this. The Military TKD changed to the Kukki syllabus in the mid 1970s, after Gen. Choi fled SK to escape political persecution the military even ordered his books destroyed.
        But we can’t change history.
        Yes those that did Military TKD created the ITF. Also those that did military TKD also played a part in the KKW movement as well. But the syllabus was Chang Hon TKD as laid out by Gen. Choi, he was after all a General in the ROK Army who was a founding member of the Army by being a graduate #44 in their 1st class. He formed the MA Dept. in the Army back in 1959.

      • White Dragon says:

        I do not claim you are wrong. What I am saying is that during that time the KTA was still allowing the chang hon forms for the military and it was not necessarily considered another martial art yet. So Kukkiwon came out of it as well as the ITF.
        And in my article I mentioned they were doing ITF pattersn in the video you can tell at one point they are doing the green belt level form. I think it was won hyo.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says:
        December 3, 2014 at 6:02 pm
        “Thanks man. Its nice to talk to a rational person about Taekwondo.”

        1) And thank you! 😉

        “But for me I do hold the opinion that true Korean Taekwondo is Kukkiwon Taekwondo and has developed into the Korean way of Taekwondo. ITF is a foreign style developed in Indonesia by a Korean named General Choi who based his camp in Canada and more foreigners are members than Koreans in ITF. In KKW more Koreans are members than foreigners it seems.”

        2) I am not sure where you get your facts from. ITF TKD started to be developed in the ROK Army by Gen. Choi, who started teaching karate or Tang Su Do from 1946 onward. He named the system he was leading the development of TKD in 1955. That development continued in Korea until 1972, when the ITF was moved to Canada. However it was till run by Koreans. Non-Koreans did not start playing major roles until the 1980s & that was also the time when North Korea & thousands upon thousands of Koreans started to support the ITF.
        No style of TKD was ever developed in Indonesia. Yes the ITF was introduced there in the 1960s by Master-Sgt. Kim Bok-Man (Army Serial #0245228), but there was no development of TKD there. Where do you get that mistaken belief from?
        Now Gen. Choi was officially dispatched on a diplomatic assignment as the 1st Korean Ambassador to Malaysia from 1962-64. However most people know that foreign Embassies are actually the home soil, sovereign territory of the home country of the Embassy. So in this case, whatever Gen. Choi did there as Ambassador was considered Korean soil.

        “but then that does not all matter. I may not really like General Choi or ITF much, but I do not disregard the fact some ITF martial artists are very good fighters and have great abilities.”

        3) I am not sure why you don’t like Gen. Choi. Did you ever met him? Did he ever do anything to you personally? Or to,your friends, family or students? Gen. Choi was a great man. A true Korean patriot who lived TKD & his homeland of Korea. He did perhaps more than any other Korean in history to teach the world about Korea, its culture, customs & history.
        Can you possibly name another Korean who did more that him?
        Or could you possibly name another marital artists that accomplished what he did?

        Please don’t let others poison your opinion or effect your feelings about others! I am not sure that this is the martial way.
        😉

      • White Dragon says:

        I do not think at the time in histort General Choi was leading the ROK as a different martial art than what was to become Kukkiwon Taekwondo as if only it was ITF Taekwondo that was developed. At the time the KTA supported, sanctioned, and approved whatever Gernal Choi was doing in the military. Therefore it is KTA TKD, and KTA TKD now days is Kukkiwon. The linage is what it is. You cannot seperate it as it being ITF seperate from what is now Korean Taekwondo KKW since it was all the same thing. The split between the arts happened later when Choi was requested to remove himself from the KTA office.
        Where do I get my facts? Well on the internet through chats with people and reading forums. I have much to read on this subject but I feel I have a basic understanding, the gist. And that is what is important. The main points.

        When i say Korean Taekwondo of today is Kukkiwon, 1. I consider South Korea to sinply be Korea. I consider North Korea to be NORTH KOREA and not Korea. We do a disservice to freedom loving Koreans in the South by claiming North Korea is simply Korea. I refuse to acknowledge North Korea’s regime as anything worthy of being Korea. I also do not approve of Choi going there to give his ITF TAekwondo to them. Many people today claim ITF is North Korean Taekwondo. In my city an instructor claims he teaches North Korean Taekwondo and it is somehow “superior” to the WTF. As if North Korean Taekwondo is real and brutal and tough, but South Korean Taekwondo is sporty and nonsense. Im tired of people like this.

        When i said indeonesia, it was my undestanding that Choi apparently developed alot of his Tul in Indonesia (or was it Malaysia? Maybe it was Malaysia) and then later of course history shows us he set up headquarters in Canada.
        Which is more Korean? Well Kukkiwon is. Why? It is actually IN KOREA, accepted by Korea as Taekwondo by the government, and sacntioned by them, and mostly Koreans do WTF Kukkiwon style. Whereas in ITF mostly foreigners practice it than Koreans practicing it. There are a few Koreans who lately have set up dojangs of ITF Taekwondo in Korea, but they by law must be Kukkiwon 4th dan at least to teach Taekwondo so all they do is rank in both organizations and choose to teach ITF over Kukkiwon. This is what I heard last about the Korean government and Taekwondo. If it is different ok.

        I must stress that I have no problem with you and your opinion. And it is fine you like CHoi, I personally do not from what I have read about his attitude and been told by others who were well read on the topic. He seemed to be authoritarian, and abusive to his kids somewhat in atttiude, and very egomaniacal. I also believ many ITF people behave like cult members and commit the sin of Choi worship. He really is not the BEST or MOST accomplished Taekwondo person in the world. He did not CREATE TKD itself, he was a founder yes and I give him credit for his influence int eh early stages. But his theories of sine wave I believe are bogus, and I think his emphasis on light contact sparring is not good. I also think his own personal book he wrote says a lot of unbelievable stories that are unverifiable and there is no real proof he was a good martial artist or a fighter.

        I think a HUGE accomplishment of Taekwondo was getting it into the Olympics and spreading the art all over and getting it recognized by the mainstream. Its a group effort, but it is my understanding that Choi’s ego makes him claim he is the god of Taekwondo and i think that is not someone I will ever follow.

  3. G says:

    White Dragon says:
    December 3, 2014 at 1:29 pm
    “Anyway I heard Taekwondo was used first for all the 5 kwans then KTA changed to Taesoodo and then General Choi came back and persuaded them to change it back. So TKD was used by everyone first then only Choi’s people for a time and then back to everyone again using TKD.”

    1) With all due respect, you heard wrong. Only the Oh Do Kwan & Chung Do Kwans were part of the naming process. They were the only ones to use the TKD name. When Gen. Choi formed the KTA on September 3, 1959 the other 4 early Kwans objected to the name. But they gave into him because of his power & influence as a military General in a poor developing country.
    That association did not last & it was superseded by 1961 by the Tae SOO Do association. The civilians did not embrace the TKD name till 1965 & later. The process was competed by 1978.
    So no the 5 original Kwans never embraced the TKD name, only Gen. Choi & his followers.
    Please refer to The Modern History of TKD, by Kang & Lee, 2 very important WTF/KKW leaders.

    “I do think KKW style has superior footwork and kick combinations that ITF people typically lack. But ITF does have a focus on hands hitting the face in ways the Olympians do not train.”

    2) For the most part I agree & that is why they can mutually benefit if they work together & cooperate more! 😉

    “but both ITF and WTF have their sport tournaments with rules. Both are lacking in self defense concepts if all you do is try to win tournaments and get medals and trophies. ITF and WTF sport sparring both look ridicuclous at times and ineffective, but parts of it looks amazing and effective. I just think both ITF and WTF rules equally ruin fighting for real self defense and limit Taekwondo’s overall techniques. But I still prefer WTF sparring over ITF sparring any day. Its just my preference. WTF has full contact and allows knockouts. ITF officially does not, all though some fringe ITF groups allow it but it is very rare and not at all truly ITF rules.”

    3) While I prefer ITF rules I mostly agree that while too much emphasis on sport hurts sd, it seems to be what most are doing, especially since many adults seem to shy away from any TKD as it has so many kiddies!

    • White Dragon says:

      right well if General Choi influenced them and had power and they then reluctantly embraced Taekwondo, they still embraced the name Taekwondo at that time. Even if they changed it to TSD while he was away at one point they were still TKD and then changed the name back to TKD so it essentially is still the same martial art even if it used another name, as it combined with everything anyway.
      For some time various kwans still used random forms and not all the same as each other anyway.

      I am not saying you are wrong im simply saying that its all Taekwondo even if there was political reasons for doing different stuff.

      Anyway yeah adults want MMA and rela fighting. I really do think Olympic TKD will either change rules or will just lose out in popularity…for Taekwondo to survive we have to have real fighting techniques and more free sparring with less rules (whiles till being safe which CAN EASILY be done in the dojang) and study self defense all the time.

      I seriously practice boxing punches and hand techniques more than kicks now days.

  4. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 3, 2014 at 6:04 pm
    “I do not claim you are wrong. What I am saying is that during that time the KTA was still allowing the chang hon forms for the military and it was not necessarily considered another martial art yet. So Kukkiwon came out of it as well as the ITF.”

    1) Please White Dragon you must understand the KTA was & is a civilian organization. It had nothing to do with the Military. The ROK Army had a MA Dept. established in 1959 by Gen. Choi. He also established the 1st KTA in 1959. The military TKD syllabus was set by Gen. Choi & the soldiers under his command. The Oh Do Kwan was the Military Gym. The KTA had no say over it at all! In fact the 3-Star Lt. Gen. Chae, who at one time was the commanding officer of all the Korean troops in Vietnam, was given a 5th than by Gen. Choi! The syllabus was the ROK Army TKD Manual,much again was almost a direct copy of Gen. Choi’s 1965 book. To repeat: The KTA had nothing to do with the Military TKD, nothing! The KKW in the 1970s influenced the Military TKD program, as they help change the syllabus away from Gen. Choi’s guidelines.

    “And in my article I mentioned they were doing ITF pattersn in the video you can tell at one point they are doing the green belt level form. I think it was won hyo.”

    Yes the Military TKD only did the Chang Hon patterns, until the mid 1970s. In fact Gen. Choi flew from Malaysia to Vietnam in 1964 & personally taught Col. Paik Joon-Gi the new patterns, as up until then they only had 5-6 Patterns finished. He then moved the total up to 20 in 1964.

    • White Dragon says:

      So are you saying the KTA had absolutely nothing at all to do with the O Do Kwan or Chung Do Kwan and they did not at all approve of what the military was doing or have any influence? How is this so? It seems to benefit you to seperate KTA from militarty in order to make ITF sound more superior or badass or whatver it is. TAekwondo is Taekwondo whether it was in the military or civilian. ITS THE SAME ART! What happened in Vietnam is the SAME art at the time which split very soon after or during the later years of the war.

      O Do Kwan was simply another kwan that now 100% embraces Kukkiwon and rejects ITF. All kwans taught different things. It does not mean it was another style of Taekwondo. It was all TKD and unified.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says:December 4, 2014 at 6:24 pm
        “So are you saying the KTA had absolutely nothing at all to do with the O Do Kwan or Chung Do Kwan and they did not at all approve of what the military was doing or have any influence? How is this so? It seems to benefit you to seperate KTA from militarty in order to make ITF sound more superior or badass or whatver it is. TAekwondo is Taekwondo whether it was in the military or civilian. ITS THE SAME ART! What happened in Vietnam is the SAME art at the time which split very soon after or during the later years of the war.”

        It would be really good if you had a better grasp on the timeline.
        Sept. 1944 Chung Do Kwan opened
        Aug. 1945 WWII ends
        1950 GM Lee Won-Kuk flees SK to escape political persecution & Korean Civil War starts. The CDK & all Kwans close as Korea is in turmoil during the War. After GM Lee flees to Japan, as he was accused of being a Japanese collaborator, Gen. Choi becomes Honorary Direcot of the CDK.
        1954 Gen. Choi & Col. Nam co-found the a Oh Do Kwan as the Military Gym
        Sept. 1959 Gen. Choi forms the KTA & is the 1st president
        May 1961 military coup installs Gen. Park as dictator
        Sept. 1961 Tae SOO Do Assocation formed
        Dec. 1962 Col. Nam & 3 ROK Captains are the 1st military TKD instructors of almost 700 sent to Vietnam
        Jan. 1965 Gen. Choi elected 3rd president of the Tae SOO Do group
        Aug. 1965 Gen. Choi pressures the civilians to adopt his TKD name
        Jan. 1966 Gen. Choi completes his 1year term, is forced out of the KTA
        March 1966 Gen. Choi forms the ITF in Seoul Korea
        Nov. 1972 KKW opens
        May 1973 WTF formed
        Aug. 1978 all the Kwans, including the ODK are retired, numbered & rolled into the KKW.

        So it is clear to see that the KTA had nothing to do with the CDK or ODK, as it was not even formed until 1959. From 1959 to 1961 Gen. Choi was the leader of both military TKD & the KTA. In 1961 Tae SOO Do comes into being. Military TKD is not, nor was it ever controlled by the KTA. Civilians have no say in military matters. It was until the mid 1970s when the Miltary TKD dropped the ITF TKD syllabus (ie patterns) & adopted the WTF TKD syllabus.

  5. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 3, 2014 at 6:08 pm
    “right well if General Choi influenced them and had power and they then reluctantly embraced Taekwondo, they still embraced the name Taekwondo at that time. Even if they changed it to TSD while he was away at one point they were still TKD and then changed the name back to TKD so it essentially is still the same martial art even if it used another name, as it combined with everything anyway.
    For some time various kwans still used random forms and not all the same as each other anyway.
    I am not saying you are wrong im simply saying that its all Taekwondo even if there was political reasons for doing different stuff.”

    1) While you may not be saying I am wrong, you still are not realizing the true timeline. There should be no doubt at all as to who 1st used the name TKD. It was the Oh Do Kwan, which was the Military that was the 1st TKD, or the “Original TKD” that is crystal clear from history. Since Gen. Choi was the honorary head of the Chung Do Kwan, those there that were loyal to Gen. Choi & following him also used the TKD name. This was 1955. No other Kwan used the name then. When Gen. Choi formed the KTA in 1959, the Moo Duk Kwan dropped out & used the SuBAkDo name, not TKD. The MDK & Jidokwan split in 1965, with 1 side still rejecting the TKD name & sticking to SuBakDo instead. So the MDK came to be known as MDK TKD & MDK TangSuDo. The Chang Moo Kwan & Song Moo Kwan preferred TangSooDo or KongSooDo. However they voted for the new Tae SOO Do compromise name in 1961.
    So Kukki TKD grew from Tae Soo Do, not TKD. They only started to apply the TKD name after Gen. Choi pressured them to do so again, this time in 1965. The process was not formerly completed until 1978.
    History shows the Military was the 1st TKD in 1955. They of course became the ITF in 1966.
    The Tae SOO Do civilian side only became TKD starting in 1965. They opened the KKW in 1972 & formed the WTF in 1973.

    “Anyway yeah adults want MMA and rela fighting. I really do think Olympic TKD will either change rules or will just lose out in popularity…for Taekwondo to survive we have to have real fighting techniques and more free sparring with less rules (whiles till being safe which CAN EASILY be done in the dojang) and study self defense all the time.
    I seriously practice boxing punches and hand techniques more than kicks now days.”

    2) I agree & I use more hands as well!
    Good job!
    Thanks
    😉

    • White Dragon says:

      People cjhange their names all the time. Does that make the person a completely different person and not the same person? No. Martial arts can go through name changes, does it mean the martial art is different and completely seperate than the other name it once was? NO! If it chooses to change its name back to the first name again does it mean it was at one point not the same style of martial art and then switched back again? NO! Its the same art the entire time.

      Also the o Do Kwan did not become the ITF. The ITF is an offshoot from KTA taekwondo and whatever the military was doing. The O Do Kwan is 100% Kukkiwon. It never left the martial art of what became KTA Kukkiwon WTF what have you.

      Who left? ITF. That is why ITF is sperate and a completely different martial art and he then decided to spell it Taekwondo-Do later. As you can see in the video footage of this artcile it was spelled TAE KWON DO with no hypen and if Choi was in charge of O Do Kwan and Vioetnam combatives training he spelled it Taekwondo like it should be first, then decided to change the name. No real ITF guy would spell it Taekwondo without a hyphen today.

      • G says:

        Please don’t get me wrong, I am not pro north Korean, but Koreans are Korean no matter where they live or the govt. they live under. Do you realize that south Korea was ruled by brutal military dictators for decades? It was not the people’s fault that their govts did or do bad things. It is sorry or sad that citizens sometimes suffer unnecessarily. But all Koreans are Koreans, same blood – same history – same customs – same language – same culture.

      • White Dragon says:

        I am pretty sure I said the regime. I was not refering to individual Koreans. FREE NORTH KOREA!

        ITF Taekwondo is used on prisoners in Korean prison camps, dungeons, and jails. It is a fact. They practice their techniques on real bodies for fun and kill people. Choi helped North Koreans government learn Taekwondo and I will not support it. I do not support Juche either and it sickens me Choi named an actual form “Juche.”

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 4, 2014 at 6:21 pm
        “I do not think at the time in histort General Choi was leading the ROK as a different martial art than what was to become Kukkiwon Taekwondo as if only it was ITF Taekwondo that was developed. At the time the KTA supported, sanctioned, and approved whatever Gernal Choi was doing in the military. Therefore it is KTA TKD, and KTA TKD now days is Kukkiwon. The linage is what it is. You cannot seperate it as it being ITF seperate from what is now Korean Taekwondo KKW since it was all the same thing. The split between the arts happened later when Choi was requested to remove himself from the KTA office.”

        1) Listen I think this is pretty simple to settle by asking 1 question:
        Do you think ITF or Chang Hon TKD is the same as WTF or Kukki TKD?
        It seems to me you think they are different. If they are, then it is logical that they had different paths of development, led by different people.
        Therefore what General Choi started doing in the ROK Military in the 1950s was different from what the civilians started doing in the 1960s.
        Yes in the 1940s they were all doing basic karate! But they moved away from the common roots, differently, at different time & their separate processes were led by different people.
        Gen. Choi created the 1st KTA in 1959 & was the president. He was also a Major-General. As you said he was an authoritarian leader, so how was the civilian KTA telling the Army what to do? Plus the leader of the both orgs was the same person, Gen. Choi!
        Then remember when the civilians formed their KTA in 1961, it was Tae SOO Do, not TKD. Please read “The Modern History of TKD” by Kang & Lee, 2 WTFers & GM Kang was the president of the KKW. They make clear that the civilians did not want to take the TKD name, as that was what Gen. Choi & the Military was doing & they were doing something different, hence the new compromise name.
        Then starting in 1962 TKD spread to other countries, starting with Vietnam & Malaysia. The ROK Army dispatched Military TKD Instructors to Vietnam, around 700 during the course of the War. That KTA had NO power over the Military! NONE!

        “Where do I get my facts? Well on the internet through chats with people and reading forums. I have much to read on this subject but I feel I have a basic understanding, the gist. And that is what is important. The main points.”

        2) With all due respect, you have some good points, but some of your facts are wrong & you may have been misled or misinformed. I respectfully suggest you read the above resource, as well as A Killing Art: The Untold History of TKD. It was written by an investigative journalist, who is a college writing instructor at a Canadian University. You also need to get the 900 page TKD History by Dr. Kimm He-young, a Korean GM & PhD in History.

        When i said indeonesia, it was my undestanding that Choi apparently developed alot of his Tul in Indonesia (or was it Malaysia? Maybe it was Malaysia) and then later of course history shows us he set up headquarters in Canada.

        3) Yes this is an example of how you have some factual data wrong. Please consult authoritative sources for more accurate info.
        😉

      • White Dragon says:

        Ya I am going to most likely eventually read those books. I never got around to it yet or had the money to buy them.

        Also I still do not agree with you that KTA is different. Yes some techniques in ANY kwan are different, but the entire art of Taekwondo right now today ALL came from the same base and started out doing the same things. Only later did General Choui make his offshoot organization and claim its the only true TKD out there and everything is false. 9 out of 10 ITF people are going to claim they are the true Taekwondo and true Korean Taekwondo, or Traditional Taekwondo, and of course the silly term “military Taekwondo.” None of that is true. All they are doing is another style in another organization.

        Also Karate teaching went all the way through the 50s even with face punching in the KTA. I saw video. You have probably seen it too.

        Another thing, KTA od other Kwan people went to Vietnam to teach Taekwondo to special forces. One who signed my black belt certificate was Grandmaster Tae Hong Choi or Oregon who was a Jidokwan member, a chairman of WTF and USTU vice president, and Kukkiwon 100% all the fricken way supporter. What was he ONLY teaching O Do Kwan Choi stuff? I doubt it. He also went to teach US troops and FBI and CIA agents combat techniques.

        Just because Choi was chosen to lead O Do kwan does not make it his own group since it is a government sanctioned group for the south korean military. He did not take O Do Kwan to canada. O Do KWan stayed in Korea and fully embraced Kukkiwon. All kwans did. not 1 kwan said “Hey lets join the ITF!” So truthfully the linage points to what South Korean do which is Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo. ITF is mostly a foreigner participated group.

        Since every kwan did other things does not mean KTA is not true Taekwondo or the same martial art. A name change for a period of time does not mean anything. Choi also recognized KTA was also the same martial art, that is why he got mad and changed the name back to Taekwondo.

        The linage to both ITF and KKWWTF can be seen in Vietnam era and no one can claim Kukkiwon linage does not trace its roots to that, or somehow is not the same style.

        And yes I will read those books.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 6, 2014 at 10:00 am
        “Ya I am going to most likely eventually read those books. I never got around to it yet or had the money to buy them.”

        The Killing Art has been already translated into Spanish & German. The English version is also in paperback & I am sure you can get a copy, even used, for cheap.
        Good news is that The Modern History Of TKD by Kang & Lee has an English translation that is available for free as a PDF download. Just google it, as several site have it. Also Gen. Choi’s 1965 book, the 1st English book ever on TKD is also available as a free PDF as well as the 1st edition (1983/5) of the amazing 15 Volume Encyclopedia of TKD.
        Go get these free resources & add them to your collection.
        Dr. Kim’s 900 page book is really worth the $99 USD price tag.
        😉

      • White Dragon says:

        I will check out the modern history of TKD on PDF soon as I get to it. Dont worry. Thanks for letting me know.

        Ill get killing art and others later over time. Im too busy actually training in Taekwondo, teaching, and recently bought DVDs on combat etc than reading history etc. I will get to your ideas of history ASAP and see why you think what you do.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 4, 2014 at 6:29 pm
        “Also the o Do Kwan did not become the ITF. The ITF is an offshoot from KTA taekwondo and whatever the military was doing. The O Do Kwan is 100% Kukkiwon. It never left the martial art of what became KTA Kukkiwon WTF what have you.”

        1) Please understand history a little better: Gen. Choi & Col. Nam Tae-Hi taught in the Army since 1946 & 1947 respectfully. They co-founded the Oh Do Kwan in 1954 as the official military gym. It was the military men who would go onto form the ITF. Yes the ODK remained as a Kwan in SK & did indeed become retired by the SK govt. numbered & rolled into the KKW in 1978.

        “Who left? ITF. That is why ITF is sperate and a completely different martial art and he then decided to spell it Taekwondo-Do later. As you can see in the video footage of this artcile it was spelled TAE KWON DO with no hypen and if Choi was in charge of O Do Kwan and Vioetnam combatives training he spelled it Taekwondo like it should be first, then decided to change the name. No real ITF guy would spell it Taekwondo without a hyphen today.”

        2) This is where you make some BIG mistakes. Please remember that those who would go onto to create the KKW & WTF never used the TKD name until 1965 or later! However agen. Choi who conceived the name TKD was spelling it with the hyphen long before the others even used the name. You really need to get your facts straight. If not your wonder I blog will misinform readers.
        The 1st known writing of TKD in English was in March of 1959. TKD was written then as: TAIKWON DO. This was on the official Military TKD Demo Team that 1st performed TKD outside of Korea when Gen. Choi led them to Vietnam & Taiwan. Gen. Choi included the hypen very early on, not after he fled SK to avoid political persecution by the brutal dictator he opposed! In Jan. of 1965 he was elected the 3rd president of the Korean Tae SOO Do Assocation. He was successful in getting them to change the name to his TKD. That same year he authored the 1st book on TKD. I can send you digital images of the 1959 program, Offical KTA certificates in 1965 with his name as president & Taekwon-Do spelt with the hypen, as well as all of his English books from 1965 to 1999. He used the dash & had a very wonderful philosophical reason for doing so. Maybe you know it, do you?
        Do you know why the KTA, KKW & WTF spell it like Taekwondo?

        See this is how we can share & learn from each other!
        😉

      • White Dragon says:

        In Hangul Taekwondo has no hyphen at all. So whatever General Choi wrote at one time in English is irrelevant. Maybe HE wrote it that way but not everyone else. It is even seen in the Vietnam Taekwondo video written the normal English way without a hyphen. Maybe Choi really thought hyphens looked cool. Who knows.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 6, 2014 at 10:02 am
        “In Hangul Taekwondo has no hyphen at all. So whatever General Choi wrote at one time in English is irrelevant. Maybe HE wrote it that way but not everyone else. It is even seen in the Vietnam Taekwondo video written the normal English way without a hyphen. Maybe Choi really thought hyphens looked cool. Who knows.”

        You ask who knows? I have been answering & I do know. But you seem to not want to be more open minded. A mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open, LOL!
        😉
        So let’s look at these:
        You are correct, Korean HanGul does not use a hyphen. But now look at this even deeper:
        TAE & KWON & DO are 3 separate words, with their underlying meanings coming from Chinese HanJa.
        Korean is a phonetic based alphabet. When one writes TAE KWON DO in Korean, they are written without a hyphen, BUT they are WRITTEN with SPACES, not joined together.
        So the question now becomes why did Gen. Choi decide to write it in English as – Taekwon-Do?
        The answer is easy. From at least 1959, the 1st example that we (historians/scholars) can find is that previously mentioned March 1959 official program from the Military TKD historic demo team that 1st performed TKD outside of Korea. As I already stated TKD was written in English as – TAIKWON DO. So it is clear that Gen. Choi wanted to separate the physical parts of TKD (TAE & KWON) from the non-physical part, the DO or the way, so to speak. He did this for a very specific reason. He wanted what he thought was the most important part of TKD, the “DO” to stand off by itself. He also used the dash (-) or hyphen to act as a bridge, as he taught it was the diligent practice of the physical that would lead to the realization & cultivation of the “DO” & the dash – or hyphen acted like a bridge, as that was the path to the more important part of the “DO”

        Now Gen. Choi started doing this way, way before the others even used the TKD name as a label for what they were doing. I can send you digital images of the official 1959 program, his 1965 book & the 1965 KTA document that all have it written the way he wrote it: TAEKWON-DO. Maybe seeing this will help increase your knowledge base & help you to become more informed.
        I am happy to share.
        Now a question for you:
        Since Korean HanGul does not join TAE KWON DO together, why do you?
        Why does the KTA, KKW & WTF write it as 1 word in English, when it is 3 words in Korean?

      • White Dragon says:

        All modern academic writing writes Taekwondo as Taekwondo and not Tae Kwon Do. It is much like baseball is not spelled base and ball. ITFer’s problem is they try and force the hyphen and pride themselves on it and praise Choi for the hyphen as if it is super special. Its not. And it is silly say “Taekwondo” is the sport form, and Taekwon-Do” is the real killing art.

        Also by your logic if its written Tae Kwon and Do then it should be Tae-Kwon-Do and not only Taekwon-Do.

  6. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 4, 2014 at 6:21 pm
    “Which is more Korean? Well Kukkiwon is. Why? It is actually IN KOREA, accepted by Korea as Taekwondo by the government, and sacntioned by them, and mostly Koreans do WTF Kukkiwon style. Whereas in ITF mostly foreigners practice it than Koreans practicing it. There are a few Koreans who lately have set up dojangs of ITF Taekwondo in Korea, but they by law must be Kukkiwon 4th dan at least to teach Taekwondo so all they do is rank in both organizations and choose to teach ITF over Kukkiwon. This is what I heard last about the Korean government and Taekwondo. If it is different ok.”

    1) There is no doubt that TKD is Korean. It was created in Korea by Koreans. So I am not sure of your point!
    Yes the SK govt recognizes the WTF or Kukki TKD as the TKD. The IOC, Sport Accord & most major international sports orgs recognize WTF as the TKD. However now the IOC has been playing a leading role in having the ITF & WTF cooperate more. But ITF TKD is 1st a MA, not a sport. It is a KMA that has a sport component. However MAs in SK are governed by different entities. TKD in SK is governed by the KKW, an Offical govt entity. Yes any TKD school must be run by a KKW licensed instructor. But TKD in SK is a sport, not a MA. It was developed, promoted & governed as a sport. The MAs are governed differently. ITF TKD schools cannot open in SK if they use the TKD name, unless they have a KKW license. You are correct.
    Yes the ITF is an international organization, not controlled by any government. Koreans in 2 of the ITFs hold many leadership roles, including the presidency. So I am not sure I understand your point. ITF TKD is a KMA. It uses Korean terminology, Korean commands, their certifications are in Korean & English. Korean & English, the international language of business, are the 2 languages. The Korean language governs the technical side & the English governs the policy side. Gen. Choi’s books have been translated into at least 8 languages. It is the WTF that dropped Korean, moved their HQ to Switzerland & only uses English,maven in competition. All ITF competition commands are in Korean.

    “I must stress that I have no problem with you and your opinion. And it is fine you like CHoi, I personally do not from what I have read about his attitude and been told by others who were well read on the topic. He seemed to be authoritarian, and abusive to his kids somewhat in atttiude, and very egomaniacal. I also believ many ITF people behave like cult members and commit the sin of Choi worship. He really is not the BEST or MOST accomplished Taekwondo person in the world. He did not CREATE TKD itself, he was a founder yes and I give him credit for his influence int eh early stages. But his theories of sine wave I believe are bogus, and I think his emphasis on light contact sparring is not good. I also think his own personal book he wrote says a lot of unbelievable stories that are unverifiable and there is no real proof he was a good martial artist or a fighter.
    I think a HUGE accomplishment of Taekwondo was getting it into the Olympics and spreading the art all over and getting it recognized by the mainstream. Its a group effort, but it is my understanding that Choi’s ego makes him claim he is the god of Taekwondo and i think that is not someone I will ever follow.”

    2) So let me get this right: You never met Gen. Choi, never trained with him or under him, but do not like him. But you find a problem with people who did know him, train under him & respect him highly as most martial artists normally respect ther instructors & seniors. I am not sure I would follow that path.
    Please also understand that Gen. Choi was a founding member of the ROK Army. He was also the 1st Korean Ambassador to Malaysia. He was highly educated, an award winning Caligraphy artist & was fluent in several languages. As a major figure in Korean leadership & politics, his was someone who strongly & very vocally opposed the series of military generals that ran SK as brutal dictators. This opposition made him seem like an enemy of his own people & Country he helped to set up. So please be careful about poison that the dictatorial regimes spread about him, to help destroy his ITF & silence his opposition voice. Please refrain from getting involved in dirty Korean politics! It should have no place in TKD.
    Gen. Choi was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
    He received one of Canada’s prestigious awards from the Canadian govt. & other govts, including SK. He received at least 3 Honorary Doctorates. Wrote 3 books on TKD before the present day KTA even used the name TKD. He wrote the ROK Army TKD Manual in 1966 & formed the ITF in SK that same year. He wrote his 5th TKD book before the KKW even opened. He produced the most authoritative written work of any MA, a 15 Volume Encyclopedia of TKD. He wrote 8 books on TKD & 5 others, including the 1st ROK Army book on Military Intelligence. He presided over world championships from 1974 to 2001, where the gold medal championship winner, was the one who came closest to the global standard that he personally set, by teaching all around the world. Imagine having so many students that 50-70+ Countries would show up at the WCs doing what he taught!
    The Canadian Embassy in Seoul, south Korea even named a room after him in their Offical Embassy.

    I bet you can’t name another Korean martial artist that came close to his accomplishments.

  7. G says:

    Please do not ignore factual date & a more accurate timeline. Learning doesn’t happen when we tend to try & bury our collective heads in the sand, LOL!
    😉

  8. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 6, 2014 at 10:00 am
    “One who signed my black belt certificate was Grandmaster Tae Hong Choi or Oregon who was a Jidokwan member, a chairman of WTF and USTU vice president, and Kukkiwon 100% all the fricken way supporter. What was he ONLY teaching O Do Kwan Choi stuff? I doubt it. He also went to teach US troops and FBI and CIA agents combat techniques.”

    You are very lucky & should feel proud to have a certificate signed by this giant of TKD. He is a fairly iconic figure in TKD.

    • White Dragon says:

      He was. He died though. He has signed me into the Jidokwan officially except of course, Jidokwan is not a real kjwan anymore as no kwans are active. Its all Taekwondo, specifically Kukkiwon. So its just symbolic and personal why he gave out Jidokwan ranks. But its pretty nice to have.

      • G says:

        Yes I know he passed away & yes it is pretty nice to have. I am happy & proud to have many signed by Gen. Choi & Col. Nam Tae-Hi, as well as 2 other noted Pioneers, in addition to my own instructor.
        I am happy for you!
        😉

      • White Dragon says:

        Great accomplishments on your part.

        And I realize I havce read A Modern History of TKD many many years ago. I did not realize it was a “book” because it is a PDF file like a dectorate paper on taekwondo history. So I assumed it was a paper and not a book and never paid attention to the name of the title at the time. So I have read it and im reading it again right now.

        I do think that me and you are bttling over semantics more than anything. But we just have to agree to disagree on some stuff.

        I know choi deserves his credit for his part in TKD but he also gets credit for being the “taekwondo troublemaker” who caused enough problems that I dont have to respect him as a man for, but as a pioneer at the beginning sure. And coming up with the name Taekwondo, I can thank him for that because it is a very cool name better than Kong Soo Do etc. But I think ITFers give him a hell of alot more credit than he deserves and I find it annoying.

        yes Choi was military TKD. But i view TKD as an entity and all kwans are the same entity. Whatever kwans did at any time of its history within the unification was still TKD and part of my martial art history before I began training. One Choi left the KTA and seperated himself from the kwans that unified that is when ITF became its own martial art of Taekwon-Do. It is much like Karate, there are many Karate styles all called Karate, but the difference between Karate and Taekwondo is the other Karate styles arnt annoying as hell over being “true or REAL military japanese true okinawan traditional Kara-Te, that HAS to be spelled Kara-Te and not Karate” (that was supposed to be humerous). Taekwondo has the problem where General Choi was such an incredibly pompous ass over forcefully making people do HIS own ideas on all kwans and insisiting everyone has to spell it with a hyphen (at keast his modern followers still claim we should spell it that way). Disagree with me if you want, but its best we just leave this topic.

        Taekwondo ITF can do what they want. They have their own stuff, I respect that some ITF people are good fighters (while a majority really suck and wasted time doing sine wave tul perfection instead of combatives). Kukkiwon WTF Taekwondo may have more sportists than self defenser martial artists but at least there is a majority of WTF sport fighters who have some kind of combat skill. How many ITF fighters compared to WTF fighters are as good? It is my personal experience that practically every ITF dojang I have been to, or ITF person I have met in real life, has had students who cannot fight worth crap and insist general choi is the leader of Taekwondo. Whereas almost every WTF tournament dojang has had many talented athletes who can kick total ass and have some degree of merit as a combatant. And yes I have not been to every ITF gym in the world so there may be some who are really good but I have yet to know this.

        At the KKW WTF gym I trained at after I left Oregon, the Grandmaster Kwan Sung Lee of Kentucky literally taught me Kwan Gae tul but called it Hyung. I had to know it for 2nd dan, and other instructors at his dojang taught me hwa rang and chun ji. I still practice them for some from time to time so I can thank General Choi for created a few cool forms, where the rest I have practiced because I taught myself by copying ITF people I feel are lacking in much worth to me. I find the KKW and WTF style superior in so many ways with more logical progression less cult of persoanlity following as well. And the fact South Koreans generally do KKW TKD culturally right now and that is considered Taekwondo to them. The hoshinsool I learned was very crsip and tight down the linage of Grandmaster Tae Hong Choi who also k new Judo and Hapkido. I am sure some ITF self defense is good, but most of what I have seen is not anything special above, even the name military does not at all make it more badass. Not that you claim that, but the ITFers do.

        So maybe ITF did come out of military so you are correct. Its safe to say it was military TKD. but its not anymore and he went civilian with it.

        I give more credit to nam tae hi than general choi. I believe ITF is weaker in power and influence today and its becuase of Choi’s authoritarian dictator ways of forcing people to do certain things. Also the unification martial art effrot existed before he came on the scene anyway. A group of people already trying to combine martial arts who are legitimate martial artists with a few non-martial artists to help run the group was already being implemented but failing so Choi is not the originator or supreme leader of this concept. He only used his military influence and the name Taekwondo to have power and came later. ITF people claim he created Taekwondo and came up with it, but all he did was label a name to an already established group of martial arts. O Do Kwan came later as well asn was originally tang soo do with nam hae teaching.

        I dont want to argue much or debate much further but ill keep reading and looking into history. I do not think my blog is misrepresentative of Taekwondo in anyway and is self admittingly Kukkiwon centered from that point of view to promote that style above other martial arts talked about on this blog. I will not apologize for it either.

      • G says:

        I am sorry that you have such bitterness towards a man you never met, just because his detractors looked to slander him because he was such an outspoken critic of brutal dictators. I would never prejudge a ears on based upon what others said, especially when I know they had bad motives & were told to do so by evil people.

        I also noticed you did not take me up on my challenge to name another Korean with higher name recognition that did more to teach the world about Korea, Korean culture, history & customs than Gen. Choi.
        You have also failed to name another Korean martial artist who had more success than Gen. Choi!

      • White Dragon says:

        So the whole honorary 4th dan then request for 6th dan was slander and not true? The whole authoritarian dicator attitude was slander? I thought you admitted it earlier. I don’t have to meet someone to know they are probably an asshole. I did not have to knew Hitler to know he was a racist genocide loving wack job. That is a fallacious argument.

        Higher name recognition or popularity or credentials given by certain people does not make someone special or better or the god of Taekwondo. That is an appeal to a majority and appeal to popularity.

      • G says:

        Wow you know it seems that since you have made your mind up about someone you never knew, based upon attempts to slander & discredit him because of his outspoken criticism of evil dictators! I think that is sad & a bit unprofessional & certainly not in the spirit of the MA or tkd that I know!
        😦

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 7, 2014 at 12:31 pm
        “So the whole honorary 4th dan then request for 6th dan was slander and not true? The whole authoritarian dicator attitude was slander? I thought you admitted it earlier. I don’t have to meet someone to know they are probably an asshole. I did not have to knew Hitler to know he was a racist genocide loving wack job. That is a fallacious argument.”

        1) Ok even though it seems from your posts & writings you have a bit of hate in your heart. I however will try to respond without going done that road.
        1st you must have an understanding of what honorary meant in Korean society back in those days. You also have to know something about rankings in those days. Yes it does seem that Gen. Choi was given an honorary 4th Dan by GM Son Duk-sung. GM Son claims that Gen. Choi later asked for a 6th Dan. So GM Son revoked the 4th Dan, refused to issue the 6th Dan & expelled 3 of the most important tkd men ever from the CDK, GM Uhm Woon-Gyu, (former KKW President & president of the CDK), Col. Nam Tae-hi & GM Hyun Jong Myun, the one who played a big role in the KKW bringing in the ODK. However you must understand the facts behind the scene. Gen. Choi did not allow GM Son on the Military tkd demo team that made history a few months earlier when they performed tkd outside of Korea for the 1st time. He complained that Gen. Choi did not consult him. But GM Son was already removed from the CDK by Kwan founder GM Lee Won-Kuk. So his decree had no effect. You can call it crying because he did not get his way, as Gen. Choi was the mover & shaker. It was GM Son that left Korea & the others that continued their rise & important work for tkd, even Kukki tkd.

        Gen. Choi was a wonderful, kind man, who at times ran things like he was the general. He ran the ITF as he saw fit & at times was very authoritarian in his leadership ways & how he ran his org. So was Dr. Kim Un-Yong. He was the King & no one opposed him or the paid a price. You do realize that he ran all 3 major tkd groups in SK for decades, only giving up the KTA towards the end of his reign, before he was arrested for corruption, convicted & served time in prison for. So this is true, but it doesn’t take away from Dr. Kim’s vital role & major contributions does it? He still is the father of Olympic tkd & that can’t be taken away from him, no matter how any lives he ruined from the terrible KCIA pressure he had inflicted upon many people.

        “Higher name recognition or popularity or credentials given by certain people does not make someone special or better or the god of Taekwondo. That is an appeal to a majority and appeal to popularity.”

        2) I never said Gen. Choi was any type of g-d, in tkd or out. He was a flawed human being that made mistakes & was far from perfect. But he is someone who accomplished something on a scale that no one else every did. Without him there would be no tkd. Maybe you should just say a simple thank you!

  9. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 6, 2014 at 10:00 am

    “Only later did General Choui make his offshoot organization and claim its the only true TKD out there and everything is false. 9 out of 10 ITF people are going to claim they are the true Taekwondo and true Korean Taekwondo, or Traditional Taekwondo, and of course the silly term “military Taekwondo.” None of that is true. All they are doing is another style in another organization.”

    1st off all the ITF was not an “offshoot organization” & to look it that way shows a lack of understanding of history or a prejudice or some agenda, imo.
    The ITF was established on March 22, 1966 in Seoul Korea. It was formed with the participation & consent of 9 Nations. It was duly registered with 2 Ministries (sections) of the ROK govt. I can even provide you with the dates & registration numbers if you wish. The 1st honorary president of the ITF was Kim Jong-pil, a Prime Minister of south Korea. This marked the 1st time in Korean history that an international org had it HQs in Korea in its 5,000 years of existence. The ITF grew so rapidly that Dr. Kim Un-yong kept the base & used the KCIA to pressure the ITF instructors to leave Gen. Choi & join his new offshoot organization, that eventually won the race & became the “TOP DOG” in the TKD world!

    I agree with you, the ITF is not the only true TKD out there.
    I would say not 9 out of 10, but maybe 95.7 out of 100 ITFers are poisoned in their thinking, LOL!
    Traditional TKD is any TKD that adheres to certain traditions. Some would say that WTF TKD is the traditional TKD. I could agree with that viewpoint, depending on the definition of traditional.

    I am sorry that you think the use of Military TKD is silly.
    There should be no doubt who 1st applied the name TKD to the physical activity for sd that they were doing. It was the ROK Army. The term TKD was conceived by Gen. Choi & he obtained presidential authorization for the use by the 1st Korean President Dr. Rhee. They used the term TKD as a label since 1955. So there is no doubt who ORIGINALLY or first used the name. Nor is there any question as to where the name was first used: in the MILITARY, lol!
    But history shows us the civilians repeated rejected the name TKD & refused to use it as a label. So it was only the Military & those in the CDK under Gen. Choi’s leadership that actually used the term. So with a proper use of the English language, the words original & military can be applied as adjectives to further describe or distinguish which TKD one is talking about.
    The same can be said about TAE SOO DO or the civilian side, with terms or words that can best describe that evolution.

    NOTE: The use of original or military is not meant to imply better, superior, etc. It is only used by me to distinguish chronological order from an historic standpoint for purposes of clarity.

    Finally yes the ITF TKD guys are doing “another style” – so logic dictates that is has a different history of its developmental process, as well as different leaders responsible for the development. Much of our back & forth is wasted on semantics imo.

    • White Dragon says:

      TAekwondo was taught in the military before 1966 right? ITF was created in 1966. What Taekwondo was being taught before 1966? I would say generally, Taekwondo was being taught. Not ITF not WTF just Taekwondo. ITF does not own the military of Korea.

      Currently Kukkiwon Taekwondo is taight in the Korean military as well as extra special forces martial arts. Not ITF. So I could say “Oh i know military TKD because its the same TKD the current soldiers learn.” But that would be silly.

      In my opinion both ITF and KKW Taekwondo is militeral culturally in howe both organizations train and teach. And many movemens we learn are from the military and used in the military to defend and to destroy the enemy etc.

      Is this the correct link: http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf

      Is that the modern history book? It is quite short…

      • G says:

        TangSuDo was taught in the ROK Army by Gen. Choi starting in 1946 & by Col. Nam in 1947. I am sure others did so as well, informally as it was not done formally until the ROK President Dr. Rhee directed Gen. Choi to teach what he saw in a 1954 demo to all the troops. So it was essentially Korean karate at 1st. Starting in 1955 it was named TKD, but still essentially Korean karate. The Military TKD guys under Gen. Choi’s leadership started to move slowly away from the karate roots by creating new patterns. This began in 1955. Over the passage of time they added in more kicks, flying techniques etc. to distinguish themselves from karate. But the military guys consolidated many aspects of other fighting systems when it came to sd. So it was becoming what would eventually become ITF TKD. The ROK Army TKD Manual written in 1966 was basically Gen. Choi’s 1965 book, minus the karate katas, but include 20 of Gen. Choi’s Chang Hon Tuls. It also included weapons SD etc. more suitable to soldiers’ training & circumstances. I will make that book available at some pint for free, as it is a wonderful piece of history.
        So the ODK had a separate syllabus, which you can see a 1950s sample of in Dr. Kim’s book, along with the civilian Kwans syllabi as well. All side by side. So you can see both the overlap & differences. However sadly Gen. Choi’s books were ordered to be destroyed after he fled to safety in 1972. Dr. Kimm states the military TKD doped his syllabus in the mid 1970s.
        Imagine destroying books in SK! Sounds nasty to me. The Nazis did that, right? I am glad the Col. Kim Soo-Ryun preserved his 1959 copy of Gen. Choi’s book, as it was the 1st ever book on TKD, written long before the civilians even used the name, LOL! Thankfully his copy of the book is on prominent display in the museum at the new TKDwon in Muju, SK.

        Well technically in so sways you are doing some elements of ROK Military TKD. They do the Taeguek Poomsae. They have Military TKD sport teams. But also the hand to hand combat skills taught,while there may be some over lap,mis more of a Military fighting emphasis. So I would guess neither of us do much of that or have that exact focus.
        Also the free PDF is an easy read, enjoy it & that is the link, or 1 of them. The English translation should be trustworthy as it was by a prominent American TKD leader who is lawyer as well, if my memory serves me right.
        Enjoy!

      • White Dragon says:

        The Modern History book/academic paper actually has a lot of confusing typos or bad grammar. It needs to also define terms more when using so many korean words. They dont explain some of them for the school names or whatever certain demos they were doing. Also is there ANY history of the chinese martial art one of the kwan leaders practiced? I believe it was the YMCA kwan bup guy.

        Also the modern history pretty much admits choi pissed everyone off and they told him to just leave them the hell alone and go do his ITF.

      • G says:

        From Kim Soo Karate:

        Grandmaster Yoon Byung-in was born in Korea, but because of the Japanese occupation there, he and his family fled to Manchuria. He became fascinated with the art of Chu’an Fa (Kung Fu) at a nearby school and asked the instructor for permission to join. The instructor firmly refused, for in China, the teachings of martial arts were for Chinese natives only and kept secret from all outsiders.

        Byung In Yoon could not stay away from the school. During the day, he would jump up and down in front of the school’s windows glimpsing what he could of classes. The instructor would catch him and sent him away from the school.

        Determined to somehow be a part of the school, Byung In Yoon returned. This time he cleaned the area around the dojang and in front of the dojang entrance where the shoes of the instructor and all of the students lay. He meticulously arranged the shoes in neat, orderly rows. He returned every day to this task.

        The instructor came out of the dojang surprised to find this orderly and well kept area, day after day. He noticed that someone had also rearranged his shoes so that the toes pointed away from the entrance, ready for him to easily slip into and walk away. He was very intrigued and tried to find the student who was so dedicated.

        He found that it was not his students, but the little Korean boy who was determined to show his sincerity. The instructor was so impressed with Byung In Yoon’s tenacity and sincerity that he made an exception and allowed him to join the school. Never before had a Korean national been accepted to learn the Chinese martial art of Chu’an Fa.

      • White Dragon says:

        very nice story and facsinating. But what is his martial art of Chinese origin consist or? any known masters or teachings or forms? Does it still exist today?

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 7, 2014 at 12:32 pm
        “very nice story and facsinating. But what is his martial art of Chinese origin consist or? any known masters or teachings or forms? Does it still exist today?”

        This is a problem with some of the info from the past. Some of it is only passed down in stories, with no way to confirm or learn more.
        I am sorry that I don’t know more about this topic. Possibly Dr. Kimm could help you more or GM Kim Soo from Texas in the USA. They both have websites. If you find out more, please let me know & maybe consider sharing it with your readers here on your blog.
        😉
        Good Hunting!

  10. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 6, 2014 at 10:00 am

    “Just because Choi was chosen to lead O Do kwan does not make it his own group since it is a government sanctioned group for the south korean military. He did not take O Do Kwan to canada. O Do KWan stayed in Korea and fully embraced Kukkiwon. All kwans did. not 1 kwan said “Hey lets join the ITF!” So truthfully the linage points to what South Korean do which is Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo. ITF is mostly a foreigner participated group.”

    Please be clear here, Gen. Choi was not chosen to lead the Oh Do Kwan. He founded the ODK in 1954 along with Col. Nam Tae-Hi, then a young Captain.

    Gen. Choi used the ODK to spread his KMA of SD that he coined TKD. No one else was using the name TKD, but Gen. Choi & his people, starting in 1955. Hence the use of the term original TKD. Since TKD was originally taught in the ROK Army, under Gen. Choi’s leadership, it is obvious that the term Military TKD is accurate. I am not sure why you resist this logic!
    The top 3 leaders of Military TKD & 1st 3 TKD Masters were Gen. Choi, Col. Nam & Sgt. 1st Class Han Cha-Kyo. (I can provide their Military Serial #s if you wish).
    These 3 men were eventually joined by others, mostly from the CDK as Gen. Choi was the honorary director. NOTE: Col. Nam & Sgt. Han were members of the CDK.
    When those initial 3 TKD leaders left the Military, they eventually formed the ITF. They continued the development of their TKD that they started in the Military & spread it globally to civilian students under the banner of the ITF. Over the years others participated in continuing the development & global dissemination of ITF TKD.

    Since ITF TKD is clearly different from WTF or Kukki TKD or different systems/styles, it makes sense that there were different paths of development that were led by different people.
    So let’s take a look at the WTF or Kukki TKD side:
    The top 3 leaders of the civilian side, which was originally called Tae SOO Do were GMs Lee Chong-woo of the Jidokwan, Uhm Woon-Gyu of the CDK & Lee Nam-Suk of the Chang Moo Kwan. The Jidokwan was known for their preference for sparring & they had a great reputation for it. The rules for the Olympic TKD came from the JDK. GM Lee also played a leading role in developing both the Palgwe forms & the Taeguek Poomsae. In 1971 Dr. Kim Un-Yong, a KCIA man, who was deputy director of the Presidential Security became the 6th President of the KTA. He is a highly educated person who is a skilled diplomat that speaks 6 languages. As an example of his great competence he worked in the ROK Embassies in London & D.C. as well as the SK Mission to the U.N. in NYC.
    He completed the KKW that his predecessors, namely Kim Yong-Chae started. He formed the WTF in 1973, retired the Kwan system in 1978, rolling them into the KKW, this compelling & completing the elusive Kwan unification efforts that lasted decades with no previous success. He was the leader on the political side & is rightfully known as the father of Olympic TKD. He was not a martial artist.
    Gen. Choi wore the 2 hats for the ITF, MA leader & political leader. Dr Kim was the political leader & perhaps GM LEE Chong-woo was the martial art leader on the Kukki TKD side.

    Dr. Kim was arrested, convicted & served time in prison for his corruption. As a result of his scandals he was forced out of TKD & IOC leadership, where he rose to VP of the IOC. He is an making man that despite his criminal actions, deserves his rightful place in history.
    Likewise Gen. Choi, no matter how people feel about his outspoken political opposition to brutal military generals that were terrible dictators that ran SK & his introduction of TKD to NK, his rightful place in history cannot be denied.

    Many, many people deserve credit & thanks. We should never hold back our collective appreciation & gratitude. It is not the martial way imo.

  11. G says:

    White Dragon says: December 6, 2014 at 12:23 pm

    “Also by your logic if its written Tae Kwon and Do then it should be Tae-Kwon-Do and not only Taekwon-Do.”

    I am sorry as you don’t seem to read my answers closely. Some do write it Tae-Kwon-Do. That is ok by me. I never addressed that as it was not part of the discussion.
    However you are mistaken as it is not my logic. I was writing about Gen. Choi’s philosophy & why he decided to write the TKD name he conceived as TAEKWON-DO. While I happen to find his reasoning to be wonderful, I make no claims that everyone has to write it that way or that this way is superior. He wanted to combine the physical parts TAE & KWON together as TAEKWON & he even had his soldiers shout TAEKWON when they saluted in training since 1955, yes saluted, not bow, as they were Military TKD, lol! This practice is continued by the ITF today when they bow. Gen. Choi did this to cement the new name that he conceived & obtained presentation approval for, which took the others 10+ years to adopt, LOL!
    So he joined the physical together TAEKWON & did not separate them. He separate the physical from the non-physical with the hyphen, as that was the bridge that led to the most important part of TKD according to his teachings!

    So I repeat my question that you have failed to answer:
    Why does the KTA, KKW, WTF & you write it as TAEKWONDO?
    Do you not have a reason for doing it?
    Do you just follow along?
    Why do your leaders write it that way?

    • White Dragon says:

      I have never once heard of Taekwondo being spelled with a hyphen until the last 6 or so years of my life when i used the internet a lot for look up taekwondo stuff.

      • G says:

        Well you may have never heard about it or read about it, as your circle may have just been a bit narrow. But rest assured it was that way since at least 1965 & that was even before the Tae SOO Do guys bothered to even use Gen. Choi’s name!
        😉
        And remember in 1959 he was already joining the physical parts together (TAIKWON) from the non-physical part (DO).

    • White Dragon says:

      Spelling[edit]
      There are 3 possible arguments for the spelling of “Taekwondo”: one is that it should follow the McCune-Reischauer Romanization (the system used by virtually all academics and other publishers on Korean topics since its invention in the 30s (except those in Korea under pressure from the vacillating political influences of the Korean Ministry of Education), the Revised Romanization (the current Ministry of Education favorite), or the most common spelling among the majority of English speakers (for words so widely used that they have entered the English language). There are minor variations on the two Romanization systems, so that spellings such as “Tekwondo” “Taekgwondo” could be argued for, but the consensus of the two systems is “Taekwondo,” and this is how the vast majority of English speakers spell it, including virtually everyone in the U.S. (I personally have never seen it spelled otherwise since first encountering it in the seventies, until seeing ITF’s misspelling here on Wikipedia a few weeks ago.) ITF can retain the mildly misspelled pre-1984-MOE-style “Taekwon-Do” as part of the name of its organization, but its members should not imperialistically change the standard spelling that this encyclopedia has adopted, which is “Taekwondo.” With regard to the spelling “gup” vs. “kup,” I think arguments for “gup” are much stronger, as that’s the way it is actually pronounced (voiced, not unaspirated unvoiced initial velar) and its best rendering probably being hyphenated, but both spellings are defensible, so I didn’t change it back to my preference when 86.129.67.234 changed all instances today from “gup” to “kup.” As for the other misspellings by 86.129.67.234, I can only say that spelling is not determined by the first linguistically naive Korean who jots down an poorly conceived Americanized spelling (with no regard for international conventions or the established standards used by most writers and publishers on Korean topics throughout the world) on the back of an envelope. DoctorW 22:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

      It’s hard to believe that Matt TKD read what I had already written above when he chose to “correct” the spelling corrections of an expert, changing them to idiosyncratic and contradictory spellings, most of which were [1] not a part of any of the 32 published (as of about 1980) proposals for the Romanization of Korean (or any since, I’m very confident), [2] surprisingly ignorant of international spellings and conventions, and [3] spellings that in some cases have been shown in empirical studies to increase mispronunciation (compared with McCune-Reischauer). -DoctorW 04:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

      The Korean Governments Deptartment of Toruism and Culture adopted the spelling of Taekwondo as one word, at the suggestion of the Hangul Society, a group of 7 scholars of the Korean language, after they had a meeting on February 26, 1987, where they also suggested the name change of many of the terms used for Taekwondo.–Bigzilla 01:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

      The ITF organisation uses “Taekwon-Do” (with or without hyphen, normally with it in my experience) and “Kup”. As Master O’Neill said once “We don’t speak Korean, we speak Taekwon-Do”. Syneil 17:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

      I moved the following comment, which appears to have been inserted in one of the previous comments above, inappropriately (because this made it look like the following comment was made by DoctorW). Janggeom (talk) 00:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

      However, it must also be stressed that within the ITF the hyphon donates the difference between sport and traditional TaeKwon-Do, the “Do” bieng the path along which the practitioner developes his mental and philosophical awareness. Specifically this spelling separates ITF from the WTF method of TaeKeon-Do practice-in other words, through the practice of Tae and Kwon, we may arrive at an understanding of the Do.
      The Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism (Korean Government), Kukkiwon, the Hangul Society, World Taekwondo Federation (IOC member), and the International Olympic Committee all use the English version as “Taekwondo”. Just as Baseball is no longer “base ball”, Taekwondo is not longer Tae Kwon Do, Taekwon Do etc. Masteralcole (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2011 (UTC) Al Cole

      • G says:

        The late GM Al Cole was a very informed leader of Kukki TKD.
        So from this reply I guess the WTF or Kukki TKD have no special philosophical reason for using taekwondo as the spelling. I find that a bit sad, as I love learning deeper meanings, disappointing almost……..

      • White Dragon says:

        Taekwondo is a word and it has its own philosophical meanings in the martial art. We dont have to spell it in a special way to make this know. I also think the hyphen is silly and looks dumb and is annoying. But that is my opinion.
        I found those answers on wikipedia of the editors discussing the spelling.

      • G says:

        White Dragon says: December 7, 2014 at 12:35 pm
        “Taekwondo is a word and it has its own philosophical meanings in the martial art. We dont have to spell it in a special way to make this know. I also think the hyphen is silly and looks dumb and is annoying. But that is my opinion.
        I found those answers on wikipedia of the editors discussing the spelling.”
        ——–

        So I guess you either lack the knowledge of why your style of tkd is written that way or the KKW does not have a stated reason why or an underlying philosophy.
        I am sorry for that, as I thought the mecca of tkd would have something more insightful.
        Sad. In a way, really, don’t you think?

        Also Wiki is not a source you should be quoting. Maybe you lack more deeper knowledge by referring to weak resources like that.
        Perhaps you should consider making inquiry to the World Tkd Academy at the KKW to see why. I would hope the only reason they did it was not to copy Gen. Choi’s way, so they could be different, LOL! I really wish they would have just gone back to the TAE SOO DO name they preferred after the y pushed him out of the KTA.
        But then again, Dr. Kim was smart, as he looked to build upon what Gen. Choi already laid out.
        😉

      • G says:

        I would be demise if I didn’t add my objection to the characterization that the ITF misspells it, LOL! I find that laughable as it was the founder of the ITF that conceived of the name! Then he used it for 10+ years before those that you consider the TKD started to use it. The ITF was formed 6 years before the KKW opened & 7 years before the WTF was formed.
        😉

  12. G says:

    Well I think the Modern History PDF is a translation, so some things may get lost in translation sadly, LOL!
    Yes & it does highlight & look to portray Gen. Choi in less than a positive light for sure. This is the usual approach the SK TKD entities took, as they were controlled by their govt, which was run by terrible dictators for decades. Even today they are run &/or influenced by the politics.
    You must know that Gen. Choi was visionary & a driven man. Over the years he indeed steamrolled over a lot of lesser people. You see many in Korea were not educated that well, a result of the harshness of the Japanese occupation. However Gen. Choi was fortunate to have been highly educated & fluent in several languages. It must have been hard for him to deal with some who were uneducated thugs, that lacked real vision.
    But in any event, once a person with the stature of Gen. Choi became an outspoken critic of the dictators, they did all they could to silence him. And few Koreans were brave enough to challenge the dictators. So yes it was natural for them to comply with the dictatorial regimes & easy for them to bad mouth a successful rival.

  13. Jonathan says:

    Thanks for the fun article, man! Glad to see you enjoyed watching those stock footages as much as I did. It is interesting to see how the level of proficiency and practice compares to the art’s early days.

    • White Dragon says:

      Oh of course! You can tell their movements are so primitive and awkward. But it was mostly white belts. The sparring was a bit better and cooler on one video, while another you can tell it is just guys doing white belt moves.
      The black belts hitting the bag you can see how they love to kick with the toes. Its pretty cool.

      Imagine those guys training and having fun in a martial arts class on the base, but then going out to fight a serious war where you could die.

      It shows you back then the communists totally sucked at fighting if such special forces could beat them so easily and instill such fear.

      I believe these videos were filmed in 1970. This is after Choie already started his ITF and had been sent to Malaysia and the O Do Kwan was collaborating to unify with the other Kwans in the KTA. So anyone who tries to take away from the KTA or what we call Kukkiwon Taekwondo today and say there is no historical linage, and only ITF TKD has linage to vietnam is flat out wrong.

  14. Sonny Nguyen says:

    Thanks for the stock footage !
    I was trained in Tae kwon Do in Sai Gon, Viet nam from 1979 to 1983. After the fall of Sai Gon, all Martial Schools were closed. Not allowed to practice until early 1979. People allowed practicing Tae Kwon Do as well as other martial Styles under 1 or 2 Community Sport Club at every county in Sai gon. There were about 10 counties. No private Martial Arts School. I learned TKd at Third County Sport Club, Sai Gon and there were many TKD Instructor gathering at my school as well as other place. Most of them were from South Viet Nam Army, some just got out from jail (Reeducation Camp). As I know US military as well as other alliance troop withdrawn from South Viet Nam in 1972 and the Highest Rank of Vietnamese TKD Instructor was 4th Dan at the time of April 30, 1975. What I had been taught in TKD was exactly what we see in the stock footage. My instructors taught us Chang hon forms started from Chon-ji (8th Gup), Dan-gun, Do-san….Choong-moo (1st Dan). I didn’t know or have seen any WTF form.
    Sorry for my broken English

    • White Dragon says:

      Very interesting! How far did you get?

      I know that the military learned TAekwondo through the O Do Kwan which Choi ran and introduced his ITF forms. So much of the military were teaching the Chang Hon forms. KTA masters learne a lot of stuff including the Pal Gwe forms. The Tae Geuks did not exist yet in Vietnam and most kwans were doing Japanese Karate forms. Choi started teaching people his forms in the military so much of the military at this time also taught them. But they were still KTA as the ITF did not exist yet. The KTA accepted a few Chang Hon forms for testing purposes as well.

      During this time the KTA was a mix up Chang Hon and whatever anyone else was doing with Karate as well as Pal Gwe forms.

      But I would like to know about your training. What was your position in the military? How long did you train?

      What did you do when the US troops left?

      • Sonny Nguyen says:

        I was just a little boy when the war ended. As I said I was trained in Tae kwon do for only 3 years (1979-1983) and obtained 1st Dan back belt (no certificate, it’s not available at that time) where I practiced TKD is number 3 county sport club (10 counties in Saigon named by number) was a group of 5 tennis courts + rest area + office + bicycle parking. TKD took 3 tennis courts, 1 for white belt, 1 for color belt and 1 for black belt. The other 2 for other martial arts like Chinese kung Fu. We practiced 3 days a week (Mon. Wed. Fri or Tue. Thu. Sat.) for 8th gup – 3rd gup. From 2nd gup up, we could practice 6 days a week (Mon. – Sat. Saturday not considered a weekend, people worked 6 days a week at that time) We even practiced in the light rain. Full contact sparring without any protection gear. I got kick on my lower part at least 3 times, felt like been send to hell and still remember how the king of hell look like (He look like hell :-)) I’m kind of jealous with the soldiers practiced TKD in the stock footage. We grown-up smaller, thinner than them. They were smiling (at least they had enough food) they had an indoor gym, wooden floor, punching bag and dobok. Anyway that was my good old days !
        Thanks for asking!

      • White Dragon says:

        Wow that sounds cool! but the part about being smaller and not enough food is sad. Where do you live now? I guess communism did not do Vietnam very well. The soldiers in the footage were fighting the vietcong and north vietnamese. Korea helped the USA fight them.
        But the sparring full contact is cool. But did you use rules or were you allowed to leg kick and face punch? Do you remember anything you learned back then? Maybe one day youc an get back into Taekwondo.

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