About The WDD Blog

About The White Dragon Dojang Taekwondo & Martial Arts Blog

     The White Dragon Dojang Martial Arts Blog  features commentaries, thoughts, news, and  ideas about the current state of Taekwondo as  well as other Martial Arts topics. No this is not  written by a disgruntled International Taekwon-do Federation (ITF) cultist who is going to extol the virtues of General Choi and explain how I have THE REAL TKD and that only the ITF is the true TKD. This blog is actually written by none other than the head instructor of the White Dragon Dojang who has had 20+ years experience in the Martial Arts and is a 4th dan Black Belt and licensed, international master instructor certified by the Kukkiwon (who on this blog will be known as White Dragon).

This blog will be a straight to the point, politically incorrect, informative as well as critical blog for Taekwondo and other Martial Arts as well as extol the true virtues of Taekwondo and why it is a great Martial Art for fighting. It will especially pull no punches when it comes to discussions about the state of modern Taekwondo. Many things will be openly criticized, sometimes mocked (if deserved) and called out! Much sarcasm will be used as well! Be warned! This is for entertainment reasons for those interested in Taekwondo and general martial arts enthusiasts! Please check back every so often for new articles and enjoy yourself! If you get offended feel free to complain about it in the comments section of the articles. I may or may not ignore you, or if you say something interesting enough I might dialogue with you. Even so, follow this blog! Click the blue button on the left! 

Beliefs the WDD holds:

Taekwondo is a legitimate Martial Art system that has effective self-defense and incredible striking if it is taught the way it should be.

The correct spelling of Taekwondo in English is “Taekwondo.” Taekwon-Do is another martial art espoused by General Choi of the ITF. There is absolutely no grammatical reason for a hyphen and translating from hangul (Korean) is simply “Taekwondo” and that is how Korea spells it in English.

We fully support the Kukkiwon as well as the World Taekwondo Federation in their pursuit to keep Taekwondo spread world-wide (all though we do not really particularly like the way they do it now days very much: i.e. Taekwon-dancing, silly demos, emphasis on Olypi sport sparring and ridiculous new poomsae we don’t need). But we observe their right to do things we do not agree with and still can stand behind the Kukkiwon as the historical link of true, fully Korean, Taekwondo.

We believe the creation of Taekwondo in Korea was a collaboration of many individuals who were kwan (school) leaders of the 10 original kwans of Martial Arts that exists in Korea in the 1950’s. In 1955 these leaders of Martial Arts voted on the name “Taekwondo” to represent their Martial Arts teachings that were now unified was one style and represented by the Korean Taekwondo Association. We are sick of ITF propagandists worshiping the late General Choi who claims he made up the entire system of Taekwondo by himself simply because he used a dictionary and pointed to the words TAE, KWON, and DO; and the Korean Taekwondo Association at the time said “hey cool name we like it.” Therefore, Choi claimed he created Taekwondo. We do understand that he did emphasize the name and is responsible for keeping the name of our martial art in the KTA. And for that we thank him. He was the first KTA president and founder of the O Do Kwan and that is all swell and he deserves respect for his early actities in Taekwondo. But he does not deserve more credit than that and is not the “Father” of Taekwondo. He is one of the founders of Taekwondo who then left it to create his Taekwon-Do, a separate entity.

On the other hand we do recognize that the ITF does have legitimate Taekwondo techniques and allows punching to the head in their tournaments which may or may not be cool (depending on if it is point touch tag [lame] or full contact [not lame]). They do have masters with actual skill, and there are a couple of forms we like, but overall they are simply all about politics and cult-worship of General Choi (a known megalomaniac according the historic records such as “A Modern History of Taekwondo)). ITF is so much about politics they have had a lot of in fighting and now there are 3 groups worldwide all claiming to be the “true” ITF. So who can you trust? Their history is suspect. Their idea of the sine-wave is one of the most unscientific things in the entire martial world ever brought into Taekwondo, and has no effective purpose at all, and seems only to function as a way for people to look ridiculous when doing forms because they bounce up and down. The sine-wave idea also goes against the laws of physics and makes no sense. Oh, and the way they spell Taekwondo as “Taekwon-do” is also annoying. Apparently the hyphen makes it the “true” TKD style: Taekwondo is fake, but Taekwon-do is real.

We are also sick of the multiple McDojang organizations ruining the name of Taekwondo with their money making schemes, terrible training, stupid ideas and overall crappyness. Groups we do not appreciate are the ATA and ITA and any other American this and American that TKD groups. We are also sick of independent “Billy-Bob-Joe black belt no name academy’s” that have absolutely no organizational backing and no quality control and end up training unskilled students who can’t throw a decent punch. To them we say, “Dude! learn the system and earn a certified rank and get legitimized by the Kukkiwon and have some actual regulations you follow if you want to teach!” There are waaaaaay too many fake masters who rank themselves or buy ranks from random diploma mills and want to be grandmasters. They do not know realistic combat or are even good at Taekwondo. This blog wants to create awareness about mcdojangism and how to avoid it.

Also, the WDD understands that even some officially certified Kukkiwon instructors cause plenty of problems and promote mcdojangism: ridiculous practices as well as terrible quality black belts. Most often these dojangs are made by wealthy Korean immigrants fresh out of Yong-In University ready to make tons of money off of ignorant Americans by starting dojangs simply to make money at any cost. There is a popular saying that you coul be a 4th dan in Korea when they get on the plane but when they get off the plane in America they are now 6th  or 7th dans. This is corrupt. Even the Kukkiwon has been involved with corrupt individuals who tried to sell ranks to foreigners in Korea. Stuff like this will openly be talked about on this blog as the goal is purity and truth in Taekwondo.

We also will promote Taekwondo not only as it’s own martial art, but also a combat system capable of providing people with effective self defense tools, abilities to do well in Kickboxing and Mixed Martial Arts sports. Truthfully, Taekwondo is not evolving better within the Olympics, but actually adapting and evolving into more amazing combat through avenues as MMA and Kickboxing. We believe the Kukkiwon needs to get on board with this already and stop living in the past and accept challenge matches, promote Korea fighters and create its own full contact fight team and send them all over the world to fight in MMA and Kickboxing events. This blog also believes that many traditional martial arts from many countries and cultures are also capable of this and that the recent MMA Onlyist attitude of te late 90’s and 00’s decade is dense, ignorant, and flat out wrong.

Whenever a topic in another Martial Art style comes up we may blog about it as well.

So these are the types of issues the White Dragon Dojang Taekwondo & Martial Arts Blog will discuss.

This blog is not a place for MMA onlyists and jocks who simply want to bash Taekwondo and say it sucks or refuse to think there is any value in Taekwondo training for realistic fighting. Taekwondo is a martial art that Taekwondoin should be proud of ad it deserves respect. BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kyokushin, Judo etc all seem to get respect but other martial arts styles of a traditional background are usually mocked. Especially Taekwondo which is the butt end of almost every martial art joke. Taekwondo deserves respect right up there with the above martial arts mentioned.

Some topics we are against:

Mcdojangism (the fact 95% [I just made that statistic up] of all Taekwondo gyms are a joke and exist simply to make money off of you while teaching you fast food style Martial Arts)

Taekwondo dancing (The phenomena is one of the stupidest trends that has ever come to Taekwondo and we are sick of it. Taekwondo is a martial art, not a dance style. Go take break dancing or gymnastics instead and stop with the lame demos.)

Taekwonrobics (Taking Taekwondo and playing stupid kpop while you jump up and down doing half-assed Taekwondo techniques while smiling and acting cheery much like aerobics. And the fact people actually take this seriously)

XMA (stands for Extreme Martial Arts, because spinning batons and pom-poms shaped like nunchakus, and bo staffs while screaming at the top of your lungs, wearing space suit style karate outfits is incredibly extreme dude! and makes you look totally awesome. *That was all sarcasm by the way.)

Kid black belts (because there is no way a child is strong enough, nor mature enough to understand an in-depth systematized, fighting system such as Taekwondo and all of its intricacies and dangerous techniques). A black belt should be at least 15 years old according to the Kukkiwon. Mcdojangs allow children (some as young as 6) to be black belts, but often even Kukkiwon certified instructors allow children to wear solid black belts. This angers me and teaches children simply gratification and devalues hard work. This is wrong. We would even say that a black belt should be at least 16 years old.

False-2,000 year old history (because Taekwondo was actually created in 1955 making it just under 60 years old)

Extreme Korean nationalism and ethnocentrism. We love Korea, Koreans, and their culture, but let’s face it we are all different people with our own nations and cultures and we all love Taekwondo. Once Taekwondo stepped over the boundaries of Korea it became a world Martial Art and not only for Koreans. We should not have to become Koreans just to be masters, nor do we have to respect the opinions of someone just because they are Korean and 4th dan or higher. Koreans, like every human being in the world, can have stupid opinions that need to be refuted. Sometimes I honestly think non-Koreans need to take Taekwondo away from Korea for a bit until they learn to behave properly and promote it without being ridiculously cheesy and watered down (kpop performance and things), but that is beside the point. Koreans should also rspect world cultures and customs and understand our differences and try their best to get rid of some of the racist tendencies of their culture.

North Korea’s evil regime and communism. In no way should we dialogue and allow North Korean ITF masters to come to our Kukkiwon gyms in the USA for some unity-love fest when all it does is legitimizes the brutal reign of dictatorship by Kim Jung Il (R.I.P [rest in pain jerk] and now his son Kim Jung Eun (the fat boy angry man child who murders everyone he disagrees with currently, and who threatens nuclear destruction constantly). Even so, we totally love South Korean culture and Koreans and thank Korea for giving us Taekwondo!

*We are probably against many other things and when we think of them we will add them to this list. But one thing is for sure

WE LOVE TAEKWONDO!!!

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To all of those who love Taekwondo and embrace it as a serious fighting art we salute you!!!!!

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Comments
  1. Michael says:

    Ben Kiker United Karate in Dalton GA-UKS and
    Master DJ Sais in Greenwood Mississippi are VERY good schools.
    Your historical info is good…History of Korean TKD reads like a
    Korean Soap Opera. No wonder there are so many McDojangs here
    in the U.S. where Korean History seems to be repeating itself in the U.S.
    Very sad… Really, Jhoon Rhee is at the top of the heap when you get right
    down to it. Maybe we should just all defer to Master Rhee.

    • White Dragon says:

      Hey thanks for checking out this blog! Thanks for the compliments. I have heard Jhoon Rhee is seriously responsible for a lot of the mcdojangism that occurs today. If you want to give me more info about it let me know. But I have also heard that Rhee was a legitimate badass. So he was a legitimate badass but then sold out later or started his crazy ideas like martial ballet and making tournaments overly safe to keep people in order to make money. He was also in the movie When Taekwondo Strikes which has totally wrong history. But it was a great movie anyway!!! My last instructor did not like Jhoon Rhee and said he was just an actor and not a real fighter. He was a 9th dan Korean who said that but he died over a decade ago.

      • George says:

        White Dragon what was totally wrong about the history in the movie When TKD Strikes? It was set during the brutal occupation period when the Empire of Japan forced colonial rule on Korea sung brute force. The movie was just a drama set during that terrible time that many Koreans call the “Dark Period” which even today is a very sore point between both halves of Korea & Japan.

    • George says:

      Michael actually there is historical information that is put forth on this Blog that is inaccurate. I will try my best to share some additional factual data that may help to enhance a more complete understanding. But yes a lot of it is a lot like a Korean soap opera, as Korea was a very poor country that was controlled for decades by Imperial Japan. Then Korea was artificially divided by the U.S.S.R. & the U.S.A. after WWII ended. This temporary division was cemented by a terrible civil war. So TKD came to be in a turbulent period. The Soviets installed Kim Il-Sung & the Americans installed Rhee Seung-Man after they closed down their military occupation governments. This was done during the American foreign policy known as “containment” & they led the West in trying to contain the evil of communism, hence the decades long “Cold War” era. The Cold War actually went hot in Korea for the 1st time. The Americans in their zeal to contain the spread of communism turned a blind eye (or 2) against the harsh autocratic & increasingly corrupt rule of Dr. Rhee’s Blue House. When he was driven out of Korea in 1960, a military coup took hold in 1961 that replaced the inept civilian interim govt with a series of brutal military generals who ruled with iron fists for decades. So during this back drop you have tough Korean men looking to vie for control over KMAs as the West was quickly embracing Eastern MAs. Teaching KMAs was a way out of poverty, a way out of a chaotic Korea, a cultural/propaganda tool for govt of Korea. So the internal battles were fierce to say the least.

      • Noah Fox says:

        I watched and even competed against Jhoon Rhee’s students in the 80’s in open tournaments. They were very very good… I was never that good but I was at least in the line up a few times. John Chung, Helen Chung, Charlie Lee ect. Jhoon Rhee’s new book “Bruce Lee and I” shares very little history about Rhees training in Korea but as far as “McDojo” goes this was never his intention. His intention was to have HIGH QUALITY TKD schools and he believed he could open them all over the country. His magical number was 1000 schools. This dream was never realized. Americans want everything NOW…or yesterday. The #1 McDojo in America is Tiger Rock TKD. Once known as Taekwondo Plus. It is a real racket which reminds me of Korean TKD history. When I trained in a WTF school the focus was sport TKD and full contact. I am 46 and I am not Olympic material. Never was that amazing. Not sure how to continue to progress with WTF as there are no schools around here and at 46 am I really appropriate to be trying to kick with guys in their 20’s?

      • White Dragon says:

        Thanks for commenting!

        I dont think Jhoon Rhee sucked. I think he was a good martial artist. I am sure he had good students too. But what he did was emphasize touch contact or light contact sparring as well as martial ballet and silly dance things. He did mcjojangize Taekwondo and was part of the push of TKD int hat direction. He was even in the movie “When Taekwondo Strikes!” AKA “Sting of the Dragon Masters” which had faulty Taekwondo history that was absolutely false. But even so, it was a great movie!
        But my WTF Grandmaster Kwan Sung Lee had no respect for him and thought he was simply just an actor and not a true fighter. basically he was watering down TKD even though he was talented.

        Now about Tiger Rock Being the biggest mcdojang that exists I would have to say ATA is bigger and worse. Tiger Rock is 2nd in my opinion. Tiger Rock actually came from the ATA. I wrote a couple of articles about Tiger Rock on this blog. Please view the sidebar and find the links to them and you will get big insights into this.

        Where do you live? What area of the USA? Tiger Rock is huge in the south and southeastern region of the USA. There are not many WTF schools but many ITF offshoot small groups. Only a few WTF schools and of course only focus on tournaments and not self defense. But I am Kukkiwon/WTF and I teach real self defense and fighting.

      • Grey Wolf says:

        Oh yeah, George? I agree with what you said and I don’t see where any of that conflicts with what was written on this blog.

  2. George says:

    Hello & thank you for your Blog & the opportunity to comment.

    I would like to start off by also saying I am not a disgruntled ITF cultist, but I do very much appreciate the virtues of Gen. Choi, what he contributed to the world & what he did to help introduce the world to Korea, its wonderful people, their rich culture, neat customs & long history. I also clearly understand that there is more than 1 way to look at TKD & as such, there by logical extension will be different paths of development under taken by various people, often leading to somewhat disparate entities, even though they share much in common. That being said up front, I find it disappointing that you seem to have a distaste for a TKD man.

    In any event this is not an attempt to change someone’s feelings, but rather to add some information of factual data as your Blog wishes to inform & get straight to the point. So here we go:

    There were no leaders of the 10 Kwans at any meetings to name TKD in 1955. The only Kwans that were represented were the Oh Do Kwan & Chung Do Kwan. Gen. Choi represented both as the Co-Founder of the Oh Do Kwan & the honorary director of the Chung Do Kwan. He was also a military 2-Star Major-General in the ROK Army, so his position carried some weight, power & influence. The Chung Do Kwan was also represented by their 2nd KwanJangNim, GM Son Duk-Sung, a civilian martial artist that as you & your readers may know studied directly under GM Lee Won-Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan that years earlier fled to Japan to escape political persecution. There were also some other martial artists from both of this 2 Kwans, like GM Hyun Jong-Myun & Col. Nam Tae-Hi. Both of these influential figures came from the Chung Do Kwan but were instrumental in the Oh Do Kwan & Military TKD.
    The meetings were attended by leading members of society, not martial artists, but as stated above, some from the Chung Do Kwan & Oh Do Kwan ere there. I can provide a list & titles of some of these people if you are not aware of who they are.
    From these meetings & the efforts of Gen. Choi, the 1st President of the ROK (Dr. Rhee) did indeed authorize the name TKD by writing it in Chinese HanJa characters. (I have this digital image as well). However only the Oh Do Kwan (Military) & those in the Chung Do Kwan (civilian) that were supporting Gen. Choi used the name from 1955 onward. Gen. Choi even named an early pattern (U-Nam) after Dr. Rhee to garner favor & support, as U-Nam was his pen name!
    In 1959 (Sept) Gen. Choi formed the KTA with himself (& others) representing the Oh Do Kwan & Chung Do Kwan, with the leaders of the 4 other early Kwans, Song Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, Jido Kwan & Chang Moo Kwan. (I have digital images of the media accounts). This unified effort was not solid & was impacted by GM Hwang Kee’s withdrawal & the eventual military coup.
    In 1961 the civilians formed the Korea Tae SOO Do Assoc. They rejected the TKD name as that was what they said Gen. Choi was doing. Please see the Modern History of TKD by Kang & Lee.
    In 1965, as 3rd President of the K. Tae Soo Do A. Gen. Choi was successful in pressuring them to adopt his TKD name as the label, but he could not force or convince them to follow his system of focus he & his solders he commanded had been jointly developing for some 10 years already. So the split continued, but now the 2 entities were using the same name, which has caused much confusion. (And of course a lot of animosity!)
    Of course you are right that there are many nice people & good students of ITF TKD. Accounts of their history should be suspect, as it only focuses on what their path of development created. The same can be said with the KTA, KKW, WTF & official accounts by government Ministries in the ROK.
    Yes total agreement on the TKD is 2,000 years old myth, as that is a fabrication. Of course many aspects of Korea & their culture have impacted & shaped what TKD is today. But it is a 20th Century development. Kukki TKD was a collaborated effort starting in the 1960s by many from the 9 main Kwans & some of the many spin offs or annex kwans. The ITF came from a collaborated effort starting in the 1950s by soldiers in the ROK Army (Oh Do Kwan or military gym), supported greatly by the civilians in the Chung Do Kwan.
    Yes I would agree that Gen. Choi is not “THE” founder of TKD. But as the Encyclopedia Britannica states Gen. Choi is the principle founder of TKD & the one who named it. However I would add a further caveat: Gen. Choi is the principle founder of the original or 1st system of KMA that continuously applied the name TKD as a label, starting in 1955.
    All TKD shares a common root & as the recent Accord signed by both the ITF & WTF states “all TKD organizations are to some extent inseparable” & I am happy that they have pledged mutual respect & cooperation in going forward in a positive manner for the future of TKD

    THANKS!

    😉

    “We believe the creation of Taekwondo in Korea was a collaboration of many individuals who were kwan (school) leaders of the 10 original kwans of Martial Arts that exists in Korea in the 1950’s. In 1955 these leaders of Martial Arts voted on the name “Taekwondo” to represent their Martial Arts teachings that were now unified was one style and represented by the Korean Taekwondo Association. We are sick of ITF propagandists worshiping a dead Korean guy (General Choi) who claims he made up the entire system of Taekwondo by himself simply because he used a dictionary and pointed to the words TAE, KWON, and DO; and the Korean Taekwondo Association at the time said “hey cool name we like it.” Therefore, Choi claimed he created Taekwondo.

    On the other hand we do recognize that the ITF does have legitimate Taekwondo techniques and allows punching to the head in their tournaments which may or may not be cool (depending on if it is point touch tag [lame] or full contact [not lame]). They do have masters with actual skill, and there are a couple of forms we like, but overall they are simply all about politics and cult-worship of General Choi (a known megalomaniac). ITF is so much about politics they have had a lot of in fighting and now there are 3 groups worldwide all claiming to be the “true” ITF. So who can you trust? Their history is suspect. Their idea of the sine-wave is one of the most unscientific things in the entire martial world ever brought into Taekwondo, and has no effective purpose at all, and seems only to function as a way for people to look ridiculous when doing forms because they bounce up and down. The sine-wave idea also goes against the laws of physics and makes no sense. Oh, and the way they spell Taekwondo as “Taekwon-do” is also annoying. Apparently the hyphen makes it the “true” TKD style: Taekwondo is fake, but Taekwon-do is real.”

    “False-2,000 year old history (because Taekwondo was actually created in 1955 making it just under 60 years old)”

    “No this is not written by a disgruntled International Taekwon-do Federation (ITF) cultist who is going to extol the virtues of General Choi and explain how I have THE REAL TKD and that only the ITF is the true TKD.”

    • George says:

      Gen. Choi has passed from this world & it is not my job to judge him or defend him. I leave those matters pertaining to judgement to his creator.

      However there is no doubt to anyone that knew Gen. Choi that he was obsessive. He lived for TKD & obsessed constantly about it. He also had a very strong ego, as many leaders do, as it is often a prerequisite to get many difficult tasks done. Of course his detractors will look at that differently. But I have come to know that there are 3 sides to every story, his, hers & the truth. The truth inevitably is always seeming to fall somewhere between the 2 extremes, at times closer to her side & at other times closer to his side. But facts are facts.

      Gen. Choi was not a student at the Chung Do Kwan, nor did he train under GM Lee. I have heard various Internet stories about that,me hitch seemed to have been repeated & are now accepted instead of challenged as a myth. So where is the documented evidence that he actually trained there or under him?

      I can assure you that the timeline does not afford those opportunities, given Gen. Choi’s well documented military career & locations of service, including in the USA when GM Lee was still there. Their paths did not cross until Gen. Choi’s involvement as an honorary director of th CDK.

      Gen. Choi, nor the actual Dan ranks or certificates of level were ever presented about any of the 7 Koreans who studied MAs abroad during the occupation period & then played a role in teaching Karate in Korea at the Korean Karate Kwans that opened before the all out fighting of the Korean Civil War broke out in 1950. Only 3 had some sort of independent verification through documented sources. Of the 3, 2 were named in Karate listings as instructors, so the assumption was that there were at least 4th Dans. Gen. Choi also had independent verification as Dr. Kimm He-Young, PhD & historian verified through actual records of a YMCA in Japan that Gen. Choi actually taught Karate there. Additionally interviews he have offered supporting evidence of that. Plus interaction with a subordinate military officer lent some additional credehence to their prior relationship in Japan through Karate. But it only seems that Gen. Choi & GM Hwang Ki, 2 of the 1st generation leaders & Kwan founders that did not cooperate with the KKW unification efforts. So their ranks are questioned only.

      Please understand that while Gen. Choi was labeled a traitor that committed treason, he was no such thing. He was a Canadian citizen that broke no international law or that of his adopted country when he traveled to NK. In fact Gen. Choi was nominated for the Nobel Prize For Prace by Canda & the Canadian Embassy in Seoul named a room after him as they often do to honor great Candian citizens.

      Gen. Choi is often portrayed as an enemy of his beloved homeland as he openinly opposed a series of military dictators who ruled with a brutal hand for decades. As such the military generals employed terrible tactics to silence him & destroy the ITF. Haven’t you read Alex Gillis’ book?

    • George says:

      Greg Wolf how & when did Gen. Choi try to have his son killed?
      I missed that one & would love a reference to that so I can learn more about it.
      Thanks

    • George says:

      Greg Wolf if you consider GM Lee Won-Kuk the technical founder of TKD, then you need to then credit his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei. GM Lee taught in Korea basically what he learned in Japan, which was rudimentary karate, plain & simple. So intellectual honesty would require that his teacher be credited, don’t you think?
      GM Lee fled Korea in 1950, long before the idea of a KMA was established. Kukki TKD was developed initially around new unique sports sparring rules that came mostly from the Jido kwan in the early 1960s. The 2nd generation leaders were GMs Lee Chong-woo, Lee Nam-suk & Uhm Woon-gyu. However Kukki TKD came into being as a uniquely Korean martial sport in the 1970s when Dr. Kim Un-yong approached the 3rd generation leaders who were not tainted by direct karate training. These innovators took the rules & developed the lightening fast kicks & quick stepping that Kuuki TKD excels in.
      The Military or original TKD began its work to becoming a KMA in the 1950s with the new Tuls they created. But since these were pretty much prearranged karate moves, what would become ITF or Chang Hon TKD didn’t become uniquely Korean until the early 1980s when Gen. Choi introduced his new movement.

    • George says:

      Grey Wolf I would love a link to this resource if you could be so kind enough to provide it.
      Thanks
      george

      “Yong In Taekwondo History paper (can be founded at Stanford website and other places)”

    • George says:

      Grey Wolf Col. Nam, GMs C.K. Choi, Lee Yoo-sun & Kim Yong-soo, as well as others have all went on record saying the same thing, which was Gen. Choi designed the patterns & he used them to work out how they flowed. In essence one writer, a lawyer from Chicago who interviewed Col. Nam for TKD Times said in essence Gen. Choi was the director & they were the actors.

      So Gen. Choi was visionary, creative & an innovator that also had the luxury of grabbing an almost unlimited supply of young supermen that he used to help him develop & spread the original military TKD.

    • Grey Wolf says:

      “Please understand that while Gen. Choi was labeled a traitor that committed treason, he was no such thing. He was a Canadian citizen that broke no international law or that of his adopted country when he traveled to NK.”

      A technicality. So I guess I won’t be a traitor to my home country of the US if I become a citizen of a Russian owned territory first, and then sell intelligence.

      “In fact Gen. Choi was nominated for the Nobel Prize For Prace by Canda & the Canadian Embassy in Seoul named a room after him as they often do to honor great Candian citizens.”

      So did Obama, for doing nothing. Choi had powerful political friends.

      “Gen. Choi is often portrayed as an enemy of his beloved homeland as he openinly opposed a series of military dictators who ruled with a brutal hand for decades. As such the military generals employed terrible tactics to silence him & destroy the ITF.”

      I understand they tried to get rid of Choi because of his public opposition to dictatorial leaders. At first the KTA helped Choi begin the ITF, so I imagine any plots to destroy it were out of a desire to promote Kukki TKD which would make money for SK.

      “Haven’t you read Alex Gillis’ book?”

      Yeah, I read the facts, but didn’t buy his attempt to write Choi off as the tragic hero of Taekwon-Do. The facts he reported about what Choi did and how he treated people speak for themselves.

      “how & when did Gen. Choi try to have his son killed?”

      You got me here. I recalled this point incorrectly. He didn’t try to kill Jung-hwa, but he did do nothing to help save him when he was detained by SK. He was utterly willing to sacrifice him family for Taekwon-do (which really doesn’t matter that much).

      “Gen. Choi also had independent verification as Dr. Kimm He-Young, PhD & historian verified through actual records of a YMCA in Japan that Gen. Choi actually taught Karate there.”

      I’d like to see that documentation. Is that a book or article, or something else?

      “But it only seems that Gen. Choi & GM Hwang Ki, 2 of the 1st generation leaders & Kwan founders that did not cooperate with the KKW unification efforts. So their ranks are questioned only.”

      Hwang Kee was a pain, too, and also was caught in lies. But I could care less about his credentials because his students all have legit skill and knowledge, yet do not claim he is some sort of deity or teh r3@l founder of taekwondo. Really, Hwang Kee was not qualified to teach martial arts at all according to his credentials — he recalled one or two years of kung fu training and some self-teaching in taekkyon and karate. Lee Won-kuk claimed Hawng studied at the chungdohwe for some time (he also claimed Hwang had no formal training in martial arts). Madis documents these pieces of information in his “Storming the Fortress” series of articles on Fighting Arts. http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=686

      “if you consider GM Lee Won-Kuk the technical founder of TKD, then you need to then credit his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei.”

      No. Funakoshi was not Korean and did not come to Korea to teach martial arts. Lee taught Nam Tae Hi and countless other Taekwondo pioneers.

      “I would love a link to this resource if you could be so kind enough to provide it.”

      http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf

      “So Gen. Choi was visionary, creative & an innovator that also had the luxury of grabbing an almost unlimited supply of young supermen that he used to help him develop & spread the original military TKD.”

      If you consider the tuls to be the real bulk of the technical side of Chong Hon, then you’re right. But my mind is more on executing individual techniques such as strikes, blocks, kicks, and self-defense stuff. If Choi mapped it out and the other guys performed, then I think it is safe to say the performers had to figure out how to connect and apply the movements.

      “Gen. Choi was not a student at the Chung Do Kwan, nor did he train under GM Lee. I have heard various Internet stories about that,me hitch seemed to have been repeated & are now accepted instead of challenged as a myth. So where is the documented evidence that he actually trained there or under him?”

      You seem to be correct on this point as well. I am not propagating that myth; it was Hwang Kee that Lee claimed to have taught, not Choi, and that’s where I mixed it up in my brain. I have read a lot and some of the information gets jumbled.

  3. Michael says:

    Good Grief How depressing. If you read the minutes kept by the initial Kwan meetings it sounds like a Korean Soap Opera. The dilemma I find myself in is that I know all the forms below blackbelt for ITF or traditional TKD…I know all black belt forms for both ITF and WTF to 4th degree…but my training has only been with traditional schools who have no formal records like the ITF or WTF.
    The ITF forms below blackbelt and the black belt forms for ITF are good forms but that sine wave is where I draw the line. It looks ridiculous…Wish the WTF would recognize some of the ITF forms though. Probably will never happen. Sigh.

    • White Dragon says:

      I only like a couple of the ITF forms. The rest are trash in my opinion. I like parts of kwan gae, I like hwa rang, and I like chun ji. A lot of the others are ridiculous.

      • George says:

        Do you not like Gae Baek, Eui Am, Juche, Moon Mu, So San, Choi Yong & Yong Gae? These are some of the BB patterns & have a lot of kicks, spinning kicks, multiple kicks, consecutive kicks & flying kicks.

      • White Dragon says:

        That’s why I don’t like them. They are ridiculous.

    • Grey Wolf says:

      Recognizing some of the pre black belt forms wouldn’t be a bad idea. But really they are mostly re formulations of Japanese kata. The problem is the ITF forms just get ridiculous and long. If you accept some, why not all? That’s the question. It’d be arbitrary but I agree with you. Some of the early forms are good.

      • George says:

        Not sure what you mean by early forms, but the list of patterns in the order of development were: HwaRang, Chung Mu, Ul Ji, U-Nam, SAM-IL, & Gae Baek.

        The last 5 developed were Eui Am, Yong Gae, Moon Mu, So San & Juche. These are the ones with the most flashy, spinning high kicking with slow motion kicks, etc.

      • Grey Wolf says:

        I mean the entire Chang Hon family, at least what was extant in what could be considered “early” times in TKD. The “some” are the handful of forms which seem to be practical and well rooted.

      • George says:

        White Dragon & Grey Wolf you both use the word or term ridiculous, but I am still at a lost as to what you mean by that. Please explain how you feel or why you think they are ridiculous. After all the Blog states that it (The Blog/Posts) will be “straight to the point & informative” as well as featuring commentaries, thoughts and ideas. But I am not following your thought process or ideas.
        Please be kind enough to expand.
        Thanks

      • Grey Wolf says:

        Ridiculous = movements which are not practical and operate from an unstable base, such as slow kicks, slow kicks which move in a circle, etc. Also, forms which go on way longer that they really need to just for the sake of being “difficult.” Poomsae is supposed to teach you sound basics. Spinning/jumping kicks don’t have much of a place in them in my opinion.

  4. Michael says:

    I wish the WTF would recognize Jhoon Rhee TKD. He was also linked with ITF but then broke it off due to politics probably about the same time as WTF…Jhoon Rhee never used that sine wave.

    • White Dragon says:

      I think people recognize Jhoon Rhee’s contribution, but a lot of people recognize his stupid ideas as well. One of them being “martial ballet” what an idiot.

    • George says:

      Yes GM Jhoon Rhee was a founding member of the ITF. Like many he jumped on the band wagon when Gen. Choi enjoyed being in positions of power & influence. GM Rhee was a savvy operator & knew a good situation to take advantage of. They broke their relationship in the 1970s when the USA was embroiled with the KoreaGate Scandal which resulted in official investigations by the U.S. Congress, assisted by the F.B.I. & other federal agencies of the U.S. govt. These records, including GM Rhee’s involvement were documented in the series of hearings the House & Senate held.
      What this investigation showed was the Unification church was a front for the KCIA. GM Rhee’s name appeared in several instances & did Dr. Kim Un-Yong, who went by his KCIA operative name of Mikey Kim.
      Gen. Choi of course was a high placed vocal opposition leader from the bully pulpit provided by the ITF.

  5. George says:

    Grey Wolf says:
    October 26, 2014 at 1:45 pm
    “Ridiculous = movements which are not practical and operate from an unstable base, such as slow kicks, slow kicks which move in a circle, etc. Also, forms which go on way longer that they really need to just for the sake of being “difficult.” Poomsae is supposed to teach you sound basics. Spinning/jumping kicks don’t have much of a place in them in my opinion.”

    Thank you! I see your point & respect your opinion.
    😉

  6. Grey Wolf says:

    I understand that now that you’ve said it, and apologize for mis-understanding. When you’ve blogged for any length of time, when someone starts shot-gunning a bunch of comments calling out details of what you’ve written, you tend to read comments like “I thought this blog was about clarity?” as passive aggressive sleights at your integrity. Obviously that was my mistake.

    I can’t speak for WhiteDragon but I do know him, and his contentions with you are probably over what he perceives out of your comments to indicate typical ITF positions. He’s gotten a LOT of grief and vitriol from ITF’ers over simple truths such as Choi was not the single founder of Taekwondo. So you can understand his reaction.

    • George says:

      Grey Wolf says:
      October 26, 2014 at 3:17 pm
      1) “I understand that now that you’ve said it, and apologize for mis-understanding. When you’ve blogged for any length of time, when someone starts shot-gunning a bunch of comments calling out details of what you’ve written, you tend to read comments like “I thought this blog was about clarity?” as passive aggressive sleights at your integrity. Obviously that was my mistake.”

      2) “I can’t speak for WhiteDragon but I do know him, and his contentions with you are probably over what he perceives out of your comments to indicate typical ITF positions. He’s gotten a LOT of grief and vitriol from ITF’ers over simple truths such as Choi was not the single founder of Taekwondo. So you can understand his reaction.”
      ——–
      1- Thank you kindly. Yes I am about clarity 1st & am sorry for causing any confusion, as it goes against my intentions for sure, LOL!
      I know that many mistakes are made innocently by many, myself included. I am also well aware of the epic battles like I am XXX TKD & you are not, therefore you are not TKD but instead________(fill in the blank with whatever terrible attack on a fellow martial artist that you want). I want none of that. I am also aware of many of the motivations & political nonsense that both a plaque on all TKD & has blessed TKD, still to this day. Luckily the military dictatorships ended in SK back in the late 1980s & the military generals left office in the 1990s. Today SK is a rich, vibrant democracy that still has challenges with TKD administration, but it is not like the “old days” for sure. The political environment has changed as well, mostly for the good.
      I personally find it sad that most TKD students have a natural, easy affinity for other martial artists. When it comes to other KMAs it is perhaps the closest with our Korean HapKiDo cousins. But when it comes to our actual TKD siblings, it can get downright evil! Tragic for me indeed, but maybe the topic of another Blog subject, LOL! 🙂

      2- Perhaps my BIGgest challenges come from ITFers who are sometime acting like mind numbed robots. They can have some of the most close minds I have encountered. At least many non-ITF sources speak of the ITF, Gen. Choi & the original TKD Pioneers. But it is much more rare to see ITF sources credit anyone but Gen. Choi.
      Gen. Choi was not a 1-man show, even in his TKD. To think that is beyond silly & shows a deep ignorance blinded by admiration fueled by old political battles. Gen. Choi only started pushing the founder angle when prompted to do so by Corp. J.C. Kim. They did it to build a base to counter the rising popularity driven by Dr. Kim Un-Yong, the father of Olympic TKD & the power of the SK govt in backing the newer TKD.
      The more the original TKD Pioneers left Gen. Choi for his outspoken political statements opposing the evil of the military generals & their dictatorial regimes, the louder the founder message seemed to grow. Imagine attending a seminar by THE FOUNDER of a MA, especially 1 as popular as TKD became! Of course once Gen. Choi went to NK, most south Korean master still loyal to him had no option, but to leave. All the while the KCIA was hell bent, on orders from the dictators to destroy the ITF, as it would not only help silence an outspoken, highly visible important opposition leader, but it would remove an obstacle to the Olympics. Bringing ITF TKD to NK aged the ITF, but a high price was paid by Gen. Choi & the ITF for that support.
      Luckily the 2 leaders engaged in the epic battles of the past have left the stage & 2 new leaders with none of that old animosity now can work towards mutual respect & future cooperation.
      ——–
      Gen. Choi was NOT “the’ founder of TKD. One must 1st make clear what TKD that are talking about. When it comes to the ITF, yes Gen. Choi was the founding president of the ITF in 1966, as he was in 1959 as the founding president of the 1st KTA. But he did not even create or establish those orbs by himself, as he had a lot of help & access to power & influence to accomplish what he did even then. NOTHING happens in a vacuum, right?
      However it is clear from the record that Gen. Choi was the leader, the driving force behind the development of a KMA that applied the name TKD to it 1st in 1955. This was in the military of SK at the time. Those that were involved who later set up the ITF. Many call this TKD Chang Hon TKD, after the Pen Name of Gen. Choi, which BTW means “Blue Cottage.” Therefore it is within reason to consider him the “principle founder” of only this style or system of TKD, NOT all TKD or not just TKD without a qualifying label using an adjective to describe the TKD meant, as we do have more than 1 TKD.
      But TKD is One & can be ONE when more people focus on the many things we share in common, than that which separates us!
      I for one am not a Hatfield or a McCoy. But those epic long ranging battles have waged for what many seem to view as forever, to such an extent that many today don’t know why these neighboring families even started feuding in the 1st place.
      I vote for more UNITY not more FEUDS!
      😉

  7. George says:

    Taken from the text of the above Blog Post:
    “Oh, and the way they spell Taekwondo as “Taekwon-do” is also annoying. Apparently the hyphen makes it the “true” TKD style: Taekwondo is fake, but Taekwon-do is real.”
    ——–
    Please allow if I may to explain why Gen. Choi decided to use a dash (-) or hyphen when writing Taekwon-Do in English.
    1) It is important to understand the name TKD did not exist until Gen. Choi & Col. Nam searched for a new term to describe what they are starting to do, so it could be distinguished from the karate like or foreign linked terms mostly in use, such as Tang Soo Do (China’s Tang Dynasty Hand Way/Doa/Tao) Kong Soo Do (Korean way of saying karate) or Kwon Bup (Fist Method/from China).
    2) Gen. Choi who was highly educated, especially compared to other Koreans of his day, due to the brutal occupation by Japan, used his extensive knowledge of Chinese characters (HanJa) to find the word TAE, which is more like a verb, denoting an elevated foot, as in kicking or flying/jumping, etc.
    3) When 1st written obviously it was in Chinese HanJa. Also when the 1st ROK President (Dr. Rhee) wrote the official calligraphy he also penned it in Chinese HanJa, signing it using Chinese HanJa for the artists name U-Nam, Dr. Rhee’s Pen Name
    4) Once they found the underlying Chinese HanJa, which gives pronunciation meaning, as Koreans use a phonetic based alphabet, Koreans & others came to understand TKD as they do today. So it was a process & Gen. Choi helped to cement the new name by having his soldiers shout TAE KWON when saluting during their Military TKD training. (Yes salute, they didn’t bow & BTW they saluted in TKD training according to TKD level, not military ranks)
    5) Gen. Choi early on wanted to separate the physical parts TAE & KWON from the non-physical aspect of the DO. The earliest written record in English that we have uncovered is dated March 1959, which predates the 1st KTA by 6 months (Sept. KTA) has TKD spelt in English as:
    TAIKWON DO
    6) Notice there is no dash (-) or hyphen, but here is the separation & yes TAE was spelt that way as TAI.
    7) Gen. Choi’s 1st English book, which also precedes the KTA change in Aug. 1965 from Tae SOO Do to TKD also uses the Taekwon-Do spelling throughout the entire book. Also paperwork from the KTA when Gen. Choi was president 65-6 use the hyphen as well.
    8) Gen. Choi designated Taekwon-Do to be spelt that way with the dash, as he wanted the physical parts to be separated from the “DO” or non-physical aspects, which he thought was the most IMPORTANT part of TKD. He also used the dash – as the symbolic bridge, as it was the diligent training that would lead the student to the “DO”.
    9) I have read an ITFers reasoning on why TKD is written as Taekwondo by the KKW & WTF. But I don’t think it is appropriate to include ITF reasons for a WTF/KKW initiative. It is much more fitting to have the reason stated by actual sources for their selected reasoning.
    Don’t you think?
    Maybe Kukki TKD students can state why they spell it Taekwondo.
    10) I have directed this question more than once to both the WTF & KKW via email, as well as asking numerous high ranking members. But have never received any reply.
    ——–
    So the use of the – by Gen. Choi predates the Korea TKD Assoc, KKW & WTF. So it really had nothing to do with being seen as different or even better. It reflects the philosophy of Gen. Choi. I hope this makes sense & is helpful!
    Thanks
    😉

  8. Michael says:

    I originally started with Changs TKD in Chattanooga TN in 1978. He had a reputation for strong drink, packed up and left town suddenly…then I studied Okinawan Kempo for 3 years…then on to Ben Kiker in Dalton GA, then on to a Karate school in knoxville, UTF in Kansas under a student of DJ Sais then on to WTF school in Harlingen TX…Now I am in Chico CA and I see no WTF schools around here. Only ITF and there was a scandal at the ITF school so I am hesitant to ever return…there is another traditional school here but again…it is not registered with ITF or WTF.
    All told have studied TKD on and off for 35 years. At least half of that time was spent in schools of one type or another. After so many years of study a wise master said “It does not matter the art…but see it through…all the way to the end because everybody these days is a jack of all trades and master of none.” He has a point. So I want to keep progressing but it would seem the kukkiwon is the only way to go. I do not know the original taeguks 1-7 although I know 8 and all the way through pyongwon of black belt forms. I am also not too big on sport TKD at my age.

    • White Dragon says:

      Too bad you moved to Chino. Too bad I dont live inc alifornia anymore after I graduated college. I could teach you all the tae geuks even the pal gwes and all black belt forms you need to know. And I could help you get ranked in the KKW. I also teach TKD is a fighting art and not olympic sport, but I do teach olympic sparring out og principal because you cannot be a TKD guy and not understand the sport part. but I mainly teach kickboxing and combatives.

  9. Michael says:

    So what to do? Where to focus and where to finish and how?

  10. Michael says:

    I apologize and am only more depressed to know the ATA is bigger than Tiger Rock. I think it was the article with the proof of videos to demonstrate how lousy ATA is during sparring when compared to WTF sparring that really caught my attention initially. Living in the South East for 30 years I learned just how big Tiger Rock had become and what a bad name it gave to TKD. Belt selling. I think I would have to drive to Sacramento just to find a WTF school… That is a long drive from Chico on typical California roads. I think there is also a WTF school in Redding which might be a little bit closer??? I don’t even know how to approach an instructor about continuing when it will involve so much driving? In the meantime I work out on my own. Given the scandal at the ITF school in Chico and having to adapt to the sine wave, I think ITF is out even if I know all of their forms to 4th degree.

    • George says:

      Michael I think you are doing the right thing by doing some research on finding a new place to train & in the meantime continue your training on your own. While I may not think that a long drive is the way to go when starting at a new place, maybe you can work out some special agreement to pay per session when you have the added time to drive there.
      In the meantime try looking at Church basement types, YMCAs & other fitness centers for non-commercial schools as well.
      GOOD LUCK!

    • White Dragon says:

      Really, maybe you could find an ITF instructor who would rank you to 4th dan as ITF. But then you could also train and learn the WTF poomsae and get ranked in the KKW as well. On youtube you can learn all the forms.

      Yes tiger rock is a belt factory and does not care about their students quality. Only money matters. Also read my articles about tiger rock and learn some stuff. You can find them if you look on my blog.

  11. Michael says:

    I hate to admit this but in 1997 I was tired of driving 200 miles/day but there was a nice looking USTA/Tiger Rock right around the corner from my house. Sure I had already been involved with martial arts for ten years…sure I had already taken a 1st degree black belt test that lasted ten hours with 50 blackbelts to drill and grill me over a spit…but I was stupid enough to believe Bruce Lee when he said “It isn’t the belt, it is what you know.” So I was young and stupid and signed up knowing I couldn’t wear my black belt but believing I might actually learn something. Nevermind that I also already knew all their forms to black belt. I learned alright but not what I thought I would learn. I thought taking off my black belt showed my humility and eagerness to learn…now I realize it was stupidity on my part. I witnessed someone actually being carted off in an ambulance with a spiral fracture of their tibia trying to learn the 360 degree spin in Chung Mu. How does that even happen??? If a student demonstrated a good technique they could be told they didn’t use control even if that only meant they just left the foot and leg extended while the aggressor ran face first into the foot. Ok, maybe it was my foot but who throws all caution to the wind and charges face first into a side kick that should have been used in forms…not fighting. It probably looked comical except that it was one of their “closed” tournaments and I was disqualified for excessive contact but honest to God I just stuck my foot out into a side kick, locked it and left it there. I witnessed the instructor break someone’s ribs (not mine) and then he told the student they should have blocked his kick. I started to see their opportunistic strategy as nothing but marketing language. I got one of their 1st degree black belts. The test was so fast and so pathetic…few were really in “black belt” shape…Someone on our test had a heart attack and was also carted off into an ambulance after a gym full of kids watched the paramedics rip his clothes off and administer shocks to get his heart started. This was not the type of heart attack young people get who didn’t know they had a heart condition…like athletes…this was the old fat and out of shape type of heart attack. Anyway, I saw all those things happen at Tiger Rock personally….oh, and then I threw their black belt in the garbage after my year contract was up…so belts (theirs anyway) didn’t matter after all. I have few regrets at 46 but Tiger Rock stands toward the front of the line. Too many injuries happened while I was there… I have never been in any school where so many unusual injuries occurred.
    BTW it was Jhoon Rhee who got the patent for the bionic chop…the foot gear, hand pads and head gear. He shows a copy of his patent in his book “Bruce Lee and I.”

    • White Dragon says:

      I think Jhoon Rhee started the watering down of Taekwondo and his safety pads etc only inhibited Taekwondo as a fighting art becaue he still did touch or no contact sparring even with gloves. And I hate those foot things!! They make kicking annoying and look absolutely stupid like big clown shoes. Thank goodness WTF does not use them!!

      Tiger Rock no longer does the chang hon forms but made up their own forms. ATA also made up their own forms as well and both of these groups patented them.

      If you threw away the black belt do you have the certificate still?

      So you have an ITF 1st dan and a tiger rock 1st dan? They were called Taekwondo plus for a very long time and only recently took on the name tiger rock right? I am sure they did not teach choong mu as an official form.

  12. Michael says:

    I was there. It was Chung Mu in 1996 or 1997. Rick Hall Chattanooga TN, Taekwondo Plus….
    Chung Mu was the form for 1st degree. They claimed that they did not consider 1st degree a high rank…it was a brilliant marketing ploy really. Take something that is supposed to be known as hard to achieve, make it easy while making people believe they achieved something difficult.
    I felt the belt was more symbolic than the certificate. Don’t remember what I did with the certificate??? Why would I have kept it? I was a traveling physical therapist for six years and moved throughout TN, twice in NC, twice in KS, twice in CO, to Utah, to TX and now in CA. That is why I was able to work out in so many states. I got my 2nd dan in 1993 from Ben Kiker. I have not been back to GA or TN to work out since that time. Instead I traveled around the country and worked out and have learned WTF forms up to Pyongwon, ITF up to Gaebaek…and if I ever tested for Ben I would also need to know Bassai Sho. I was not in good graces with Ben Kiker for taking off my black belt to work out with USTA. I am not sure I would ever be welcomed back and there is even more back story there…just like a Korean Soap Opera. It was a rough summer.
    Something I would rather forget. Still, the training is there. There has always been the training.
    At this point in my training I also wonder if padding was ultimately one of the worst things that ever happened to martial arts. Check out Dog Brothers. It reminds me of the old days.

    • White Dragon says:

      All of this black belt sacredness is so stupid. Basically an instructor is getting paid for teaching. Who cares what the student does on his own time? The student can do whatever, train wherever. Who knows. I personally would not care if I had a student who went to another state and trained. but I would be annoyed if they did tiger rock but its their choice.

      What you need to do is find a master instructor who can get you kukkiwon rank and you would be done with all this. You could totally skip to 2nd dan with your training history. Kukkiwon only allows 1 skip dan one time in any person’s life and it has to be a good enough reason.

  13. Michael says:

    I have read the stanford paper but not the books. My previous posts might explain why I am asking this question so here goes…”Why did the ITF split three ways and “who” is now really original ITF??? Is WTF truly the original “unwatered down” version of TKD?

    • White Dragon says:

      WTF is the World TAekwondo Federation which is the tournament sport organization that sanctioned Taekwondo events. They sanction mainly of course the Olympic rules sparring for international tournaments especially the Olympics. You must fight in a WTF sanctioned tournament and medal in it to be qualified for the Olympics or any major tournament. The WTF also sanctioned smaller organizations for each nation. For the USA it is USAT (United Stated of America Taekwondo). It used to be the USTU back in the day (United States Taekwondo Union) but due to problems and mainly corruption they are defunct and have switched to USAT. Other nations have their own groups that are approved by the WTF. For Korea it is the KTA.

      The Kukkiwon however is the martial art aspect of Taekwondo and the actual technique based and ranking structure organization. The World Taekwondo Headquarters. KUKKI stands for national or national sport, and WON stands for a structure or complex. So its basically the national sports complex which is the world headquarters. They approve all black belt dan ranks. They work together with the WTF to set up tournaments etc. Both the WTF and Kukkiwon back each other up. Kukkiwon sets the techniques such as poomsae and the WTF has approved the poomsae to be used in tournaments. So we practice WTF approved forms etc but its Kukkiwon forms.

      And yes in my opinion the Kukkiwon is the true linage of Taekwondo in Korea and has maintained a direct linage since 1955 (no matter what Goerge says above). The KTA was created to unify Taekwondo from all the other kwans. 10 total kwans. 5 original and 5 more annexed kwans. The KTA a decade or so later also approved the Kukkiwon while ignoring the ITF and sending Choi off to persue his own martial arts interests. The KTA never once approved the ITF or acknowledged it. The Korean government only acknowledged and today still only acknowledges Kukkiwon and WTF. Koreans practice Kukki Taekwondo. That is their culture and what all koreans train in. However there are now some newer ITF schools that set up shop in Korea, but for them to even be allowed to claim to teach Taekwondo they must first be 4th dan in Kukki Taekwondo. It is the law. All Taekwondo instructors must have 4th dan rank in the Kukkiwon. No one cares about ITF there except a few people. ITF was set up outside Korea anyway.

      Every single kwan voted to fully support the Kukkiwon and the WTF as world Taekwondo. Not one kwan said the ITF is where they want to go. As much as ITF claims Oh Do Kwan, the Oh do Kwan did not go with Choi and stayed with the KTA and WTF and Kukkiwon. That is the direct and true Taekwondo linage. ITF is a completely different martial art with its own ideas and techniques it just used the name Taekwon-do with the hyphen. You can look all of this up and look at dates and times and what actually is going on in Korea and what is considered Taekwondo.

      the Kukkiwon is the martial art and self defense base of Taekwondo. The fighting techniques surpassing mere sport but going into everything for self defense and fighting.

      • George says:

        White Dragon says:
        October 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm
        1) “And yes in my opinion the Kukkiwon is the true linage of Taekwondo in Korea and has maintained a direct linage 2) since 1955 (no matter what Goerge says above). 3) The KTA was created to unify Taekwondo from all the other kwans. 10 total kwans. 5 original and 5 more annexed kwans. 4) The KTA a decade or so later also approved the Kukkiwon while ignoring the ITF and sending Choi off to persue his own martial arts interests. The KTA never once approved the ITF or acknowledged it. The Korean government only acknowledged and today still only acknowledges Kukkiwon and WTF. Koreans practice Kukki Taekwondo. That is their culture and what all koreans train in. 5) However there are now some newer ITF schools that set up shop in Korea, but for them to even be allowed to claim to teach Taekwondo they must first be 4th dan in Kukki Taekwondo. It is the law. All Taekwondo instructors must have 4th dan rank in the Kukkiwon. 6)No one cares about ITF there except a few people. ITF was set up outside Korea anyway.”
        ========
        White Dragon you are making some mistakes here or are confusing things with terms/semantics.

        1) Yes the KKW has a true lineage of TKD. That is 100%correct. However they do not have the exclusive lineage, nor did they use the name longer then Gen. Choi did. Also the independents have just a true lineage as well.
        2) The KKW’s lineage actually stretches back further than 1955. The magic year of 1955 is when Gen. Choi conceived the TKD name, got presidential approval & applied it 1st to the KMA they were developing in the ROK Army. The KKW can trace it’s lineage to 1944 when the 1st 2 Korean karate Kwans opened, the Song Moo Kwan (March 11, 1944) & Chung Do Kwan (Sept. 15, 1944). Of course the ITF can make that same stretch back as well.
        3) The KTA which was 1st formed in 1959 was formed to unify only 6 Kwans, not 10. That KTA did not last & was superseded by the Tae SOO Do KTA in 1961. This was formed as a direct result of the military govt decree #6 which ordered all social orbs, including the KMAs to consolidate & register with the military dictatorship. I am not sure where you keep getting the incorrect # of 10 from. I am guessing it was when 10 Kwans were numbered, retired & rolled into the KKW in 1978. But here there were only 9 Kwans. #10 was an administrative Kwan that could be used by the up to 40 Kwans that were annex or new entities that came into existence. So it was 5 original kwans & 4 annex kwans & 1 admin Kwan.
        4) The KTA did NOT ignore the ITF. They held several meetings & had numerous proposals to consolidate the forms & more. They even made Gen. Choi the Honorary President of the KTA! They also had a senior KTA leader, GM Lee Nam-suk become the ITF Secty Genl. The ITF set up a 3 month instructors course that was opened t the Kwans, they had to be a 4th dan or above & had to have their Kwan approval. This course also taught english & was required in order to be dispatched abroad to teach. The KTA did not have this & provided a motivation for the KKW. The main KMA man behind Kukki TKD, GM Lee Chong-woo was the 1st technical director of the ITF. They did not ignore each other, they fought for control! The ITF was registered with the SK govt in 2 different govt ministries.
        5) This is true. However they can get around the law if they don’t advertise TKD. So if I move to SK I can open a school & teach ITF TKD no problem at all, if I call it KMA instead of TKD. This law was put into place in the early 1970s. It was a mechanism that forced the Koreans to drop their ITF training & background & switch to the KKW, as they couldn’t put food on their tables for their families if they didn’t!
        6) This is changing as SK now is a democracy & with democracy comes choices. The problem is that ITF TKD has been falsely portrayed as communist TKD, as that is the TKD that is embraced in the north. They are very good at it. The ITF & WTF will soon start putting together joint ITF/WTF Demo Teams to travel the world. They may also include non-Koreans as well. It was part of the Accord recently signed by the ITF & WTF at the Youth Olympic Games. The ITF was set up in Seoul SK on March 22, 1966. It moved to Toronto Canada in 1972 & Vienna Austria in 1985. The WTF now has their HQs in Switzerland, as they are trying to show they are international. However the ITF beat them to that as well, as you can see the timeline does not lie! Plus ITF is alive & well in NK. Koreans love the ITF Tuls as they teach about Korean history & Koreans are proud people, with a long, wonderful history.
        ……..
        White Dragon says:
        “Every single kwan voted to fully support the Kukkiwon and the WTF as world Taekwondo. Not one kwan said the ITF is where they want to go. As much as ITF claims Oh Do Kwan, the Oh do Kwan did not go with Choi and stayed with the KTA and WTF and Kukkiwon. That is the direct and true Taekwondo linage. ITF is a completely different martial art with its own ideas and techniques it just used the name Taekwon-do with the hyphen. You can look all of this up and look at dates and times and what actually is going on in Korea and what is considered Taekwondo.
        the Kukkiwon is the martial art and self defense base of Taekwondo. The fighting techniques surpassing mere sport but going into everything for self defense and fighting.”
        ========
        Ok the Oh Do Kwan was the military gym. Gen. Choi was out of the Army in 1962. The Oh Do Kwan feel to the responsibility of his students & followers. Gen. Choi fled for his safety in 1972. This was the height of the brutality of the Park doctoral regime. He suspended the constitution again, revised it again, declared martial law again, dismissed many in the national assembly again & essentially made himself leader for life! The Kwans were numbered, retired & rolled into the KKW in 1978. Anyone still loyal to Gen. Choi in SK had no other choice. The law passed years earlier mandated they join the KKW. Being certified by the ITF held no weight. It was done on purpose, in part to destroy the ITF, as it was Gen. Choi’s bully pulpit.
        White Dragon you can’t point to a law above & show see you can’t even have ITF in SK, without then realizing it also forced people in SK out of the ITF. Many did not want to follow the KKW, they were forced. Many overseas were bribed or forced, while some also simply saw that as the better option for sure! Many independents didn’t want to either, but they were forced. Many changed their names to continue their own training & avoid the sports movement. GM Hwang Ki had to sue in court & he won, 2x!
        If ITF TKD is a completely different MA that it makes sense it has a different history, right?
        Please also remember I wrote elsewhere on this Blog that Gen. Choi used the hyphen in Taekwon-Do even before the civilians even used the TKD name!
        Most thinkers or fair minded people would thin they changed it by removing the dash (-) hyphen that was already in place before they even used it!
        Timeline & Facts, they are there for all to see. My cousin once told me a mind is best when it works like a parachute!

    • George says:

      Michael says:
      October 27, 2014 at 2:03 pm
      “I have read the stanford paper but not the books. My previous posts might explain why I am asking this question so here goes…”Why did the ITF split three ways and “who” is now really original ITF??? Is WTF truly the original “unwatered down” version of TKD?”
      ========
      Michael you ask some really loaded questions, that have no simple answers. However I will try my best to present impartial information so you & others may leaner more. If anything I post is inaccurate, please bring it to my immediate attention & I will clarify or correct if I am wrong. I will do that each & every time, as I am not out to win any debate, but rather to learn the truth, as TKD’s history has been purposely shaded, distorted & at time just lied about. Their are many agendas, mine is to get at the facts.
      1) The ITF most likely split into 3 groups, as it was always a 1-man show. An org that was centered around 1 person, Gen. Choi, the man who founded it in Seoul, SK in 1966. He ran it as his own personal org & since he portrayed himself as “THE” founder of TKD, few in his org would challenge him. As he aged, his son became very popular & Gen. Choi would often tell people his son would follow him as the next president of the ITF.
      Eventually his son led a coup to replace him when the ITF world Congress body met in Italy in 2001. They voted in Gen. Choi for the 1st 2 years of the presidential 6 year term, with his son to serve the lat 4 years. This caused the 1st split with his son leaving the ITF & forming his own in early 2002. Gen. Choi passed away several months later & another split happened when Gen. Choi wish or last will was to have Prof. Chang Ung, an IOC Member from NK succeed him. This of course was most likely motivated by Gen. Choi’s long held desire to use his TKD & the ITF to help bring his country together once again. It was also at the time of great cooperation between the 2 Koreas. So the ITF split into 2, 1 led by Prof. Chang & the other led by the late then Master Tran Trein Quan.
      2) Prof. Chang Ung, PhD eventually won in the Austrian courts, home of the ITF since 1985. So the authorized & impartial entity empowered by law to settle these types of legal disputes settled that issue. Those 2 ITFs have also signed an agreement to no longer sue each other. So that matter is settled.
      3) I am not sure what you mean by unwatered down version of TKD. The true TKD is really what is true for you & to you. TKD is ONE. However TKD is divided. The divisions have caused a lot of animosity over the years. But the ITF & WTF have signed an historic Accord in front of the IOC President, so much of this is changing. However there seems to be a lot of die hards that still want to wage battle, instead of embrace each other & share, so all benefit.
      But there is no real doubt of who is the original TKD, if one uses the word original as 1st or before the others. If that is your definition of original, then it is the Military TKD which is the original TKD. They were led by Gen. Choi, who conceived the TKD name & got it approved by the 1st ROK President in 1955. The civilian side got their calligraphy from the 2nd ROK leader, the military dictator in 1971. The civilians repeated rejected the TKD name & even adopted the Tae SOO Do name as their label in 1961 when they formed the 2nd KTA. The 1st KTA was formed in 1959 by Gen. Choi as the 1st president & under the TKD banner. The civilians did not start adopting the TKD name until 1965, again at the pressuring of Gen. Choi. This is all in The Modern History of TKD.
      One can say that all TKD is watered down, as it is now taught to kids, when it was strictly a serious adult activity in the military where TKD started or in the Oh Do Kwan or Chung Do Kwan which used the TKD name 1st. I think it is safe to say not many train TKD like they did “back in the day” 😉
      Now the KKW was built in 1972 & the WTF formed in 1973. The KKW was built as the training center for the KTA. It became the World TKD Academy, as it is the mecca for Kukki TKD. These efforts began in 1961 as Tae SOO Do. It resulted in Olympic Sport TKD & Kukki TKD. This is the world’s most popular TKD. It is considered by most, if not all major sports bodies as “The” TKD. Some surveys show that the independent TKD groups are the largest, outnumbering both the ITF & WTF combined. But WTF TKD is in 206 nations officially. The ITF struggles with trying to maintain official reps in 100+ nations.
      All 3, ITF, WTF & Independents are true TKD. However since they have developed down different paths, their histories & process of development is different. They all are true & can proudly trace their roots back. However all the roots point to karate, but they all moved away from those karate roots in their won ways. However the timeline doesn’t lie, if you chart it out honestly. Gen. Choi named TKD & applied it before anyone else did. Others simply decided to use the name as it became so popular, but kept doing what is really basic karate, with some more kicks thrown in. Some TKD schools still use Japanese karate katas! So to each their own, but the timeline & facts are clear!

  14. Michael says:

    I know Tony Robbins got his black belt in a very short amount of time from Jhoon Rhee…Jhoon recommends each form be practiced a minimum of 300 times before testing… I am not sure how I feel about Tony Robbins “success” as a black belt of Jhoon Rhee but all of this does point toward marketing and selling belts.

    • White Dragon says:

      I wouldnt know. I just say if you are testing you should train usually 4 months between ranks. At least 3 times a week. Except white to yellow can be 2 times a week in my opinion. 3 times a week of 1 hour or longer, hopefully longer. Some people take longer than others to get good enough to pass as well. But usually 4 months. Anmd hopefully you did practice your poomsae a lot.

  15. Michael says:

    Gray Wolf, George, White Dragon…thanks. This is an awesome place by the way.

    • White Dragon says:

      I am glad you like it. i created this blog to motivate Taekwondo people of Kukki taekwondo to study TAekwondo as a serious martial art for self defense and fighting as well as stand up for Kukkiwon since we recieve enough propaganda and hate from other groups. The claims of no hands etc is annoying. Also to motivate Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondoin tohave high standards for training and not be mcdojangs. It is also to expose the silly mcdojang organizations as well. And to talk generally about martial arts and combat overall, even other styles. But its mainly taekwondo.

  16. George says:

    Grey Wolf says:
    October 26, 2014 at 3:03 pm
    “That’s cute. A technicality. So I guess I won’t be a traitor to my home country of the US if I become a citizen of a Russian owned territory first, and then sell intelligence.”
    ========
    WOW slow down, what intelligence did he sell? You are kidding right? You don’t really mean to throw out venom like this do you?
    What intelligence could he sell? He was out of the military for some 17-18 years! Was an Ambassador to Malaysia for 2 years, then out of that position for 15-16 years! He left SK in 1972, so 7-8 years later what would he sell to NK? He introduced TKD there. They embraced the original TKD & helped him to continue the world-wide dissemination he began in 1959, 6 years before the civilians even used the TKD name!

    Grey Wolf says:
    “You got me here. I recalled this point incorrectly. He didn’t try to kill Jung-hwa, but he did do nothing to help save him when he was detained by SK. He was utterly willing to sacrifice him family for Taekwon-do (which really doesn’t matter that much).”
    ========
    You really need to read about the brutality of the military generals & the dictatorships they reigned over for decades. Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for years for his opposition to an evil & corrupt regime. Can’t you see, you even realize they held his own family hostage when he fled SK! The U.S. President Jimmy Carter opposed the human rights abuses in SK. This is all a matter of public record. Please google the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in SK, as they even patterned after the one South Africa did after they threw of the evil government. The last 2 military generals that lead SK were sentenced to death for crimes against the Korean people. Gen. Choi was made to look like an enemy of his Country as he opposed the brutal dictators very openly.

    Grey Wolf says:
    “I’d like to see that documentation. Is that a book or article, or something else?”
    ========
    Dr. Kimm released his long awaited book which was 40 years in the making & 900 pages. I have read through it 3x & highly suggest it. Dr. Kimm has both a website & FB Page & you can ask him directly as well.

    Grey Wolf says:
    “Hwang Kee was a pain in the butt, too, and also was caught in a lot of lies”
    ========
    GM Hwang Ki was perhaps the most influential KMAist after Gen. Choi. He wrote the 1st book on KMAs in 1949, then the 2nd 1 in 1957, even before Gen. Choi’s 1st book in 1959. He was truly a KMA genus. To me I worry little about his actual training as he was so very creative, a real innovator, just like Gen. Choi. Don’t you see the pattern, Gen. Choi & GM Hwang oppose the sports movement & sports focus of their juniors in the 2nd generation & they are attacked for it. But GM Hwang stayed, fought them in court & won, not once, but twice! Look at the pattern, please!

    George says:
    “if you consider GM Lee Won-Kuk the technical founder of TKD, then you need to then credit his teacher, Funakoshi Sensei.”
    To which Grey Wolf says:
    “Um, no. Funakoshi was not Korean and did not come to Korea to teach martial arts. Lee taught Nam Tae Hi and countless other Taekwondo pioneers.”
    ========
    Look this is perhaps the easier theme or simplest concept in the whole dialogue. GM Lee studied karate in Japan under Funakoshi. GM Lee then came back to Korea & taught what he learned in Japan, which was karate, not TKD. So if you or anyone else thinks GM Lee was the technical founder of TKD, what TKD techniques did he teach? He left Korea before TKD was even named. He ran back to Japan to escape political persecution! He never taught TKD. Now YES his students were very instrumental in helping to create BOTH the original TKD in the ROK Army which was called Military TKD & they also were very involved in the Tae SOO Do movement & the creation of the KKW & WTF. It was what they did that made Kukki TKD, along with members of the 8 other major Kwans. GM Lee’s students also staffed the Oh Do Kwan under Gen. Choi.
    So it was what these 2 groups did that made TKD, not GM Lee. They took what he taught them & they then made TKD years later!

    Grey Wolf says:
    “I would love a link to this resource if you could be so kind enough to provide it.”
    http://web.stanford.edu/group/Taekwondo/documents/tkd_history.pdf
    ========
    Thank you for that link. Yes I am very familiar with that work. It is really a good piece of history that clearly shows who the original TKD was. It also makes clear that the other Kwans rejected the TKD name repeatedly, as that was what Gen. Choi was doing in the Military. So this source is really weakening your already weak argument. See this is a book by WTF leaders. But the timeline & information provided is highly accurate. I am glad you read it. I was confused as you called it by another name. It is The Modern History of TKD, by Kang & Lee.

  17. Steve says:

    Love your blog and especially how you highlight TKD used in the UFC and MMA. You’ve helped to inspire me to get back to TKD training after a 1 year absence due to injury and other health issues. Keep up the great work!

    • White Dragon says:

      great!!! There is no reason to quit Taekwondo. I believe my blog is much needed to inspire people to train in serious Taekwondo martial arts as combat and stop only narrowly focusing on olympic rules sparring and/or performance art demos (which usually suck).
      Taekwondo culture needs to get back into the real serious fighting art it was created to be.
      Also injuries are no reason to quit training because I have had many injuries and still train. Try 10 surgeries total and 6 knee surgeries are part of that. If I can do it and train to the best of my ability so can you.

      Everyone’s body is different, martial arts empower the individual and that itself is enough. We dont ALL have to be glorious sport fighters, as long as you are self improving that is the goal and if you have limitations you can still work around them and still be a talented Taekwondo man. Thats what I think and that’s how I have to train.

  18. Elizabeth Sandoval says:

    Hi White Dragon,

    I just found your blog and am finding it immensely educational, however I am becoming more and more confused as I learn about the different organizations of Tae Kwon Do.

    First, I’d better tell you where I’m coming from. In 1998 I first started Tae Kwon Do at Choi’s Tae Kwon Do Academy in Corpus Christi, TX. Over the course of 3 years learned the old Chang-Hon forms up to black belt. I took a long break since then but just recently returned to the same school and will test for my 1st Dan hopefully in May.

    My confusion and interest sparked when I tried to Google the organization on our old uniform patches and couldn’t find it. It was the “American Korean Tae Kwon Do Association”. I also tried to search some of the other organization names present in old photos from my rank evaluations such as the “Korean Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan Association”, with no luck.

    Choi’s website is http://www.officialchoistaekwondo.com and it says he was president of the Universal Tae Kwon Do federation President in South U.S.A. region in 1984 and of the American Korean T.K.D. Association in 1981. In 2002 he took students to a World Championship in Korea but I do not know for what organization, nor do I know if the school is registered with any organization today.

    He still teaches the old Chang-Hon forms (without the ITF sine wave I’d never heard of until your blog) and that is what I will be performing during my evaluation.

    I plan to ask him these questions as soon as I get a chance but I was wondering if you could provide any insight as well.

    If his school is not with any modern organization, I am wondering if I should myself become a part of one and if there is any that reflects how I have learned Tae Kwon Do, and what direction I should take.

    Looking forward to your thoughts, and I apologize if my questions are silly.

    Elizabeth

    • Elizabeth Sandoval says:

      I also apologize for all of the grammar errors. It’s way too late for me to be on the internet, lol.

      Elizabeth

      • White Dragon says:

        Grammar errors dont matter to me. Writing on a comment section on the internet is not a school report so just type however you want as long as I can read it hehe.

    • White Dragon says:

      No you have very good questions.

      I have heard of those organizations but they are more alternative groups and not one of the mainline (the big 2: Kukkiwon and ITF) organizations.

      I would just test and get my black belt and accomplish it. Yes ask him all the questions you can and learn the history and everything about your school and instructor.

      Its up to you what organizations you would want to join. Of course this blog promotes the bleief the the Kukkiwon is true Taekwondo and the true and correct linage whereas ITF is an offshoot created by Choi in the 1960’s when he left the KTA and was bitter towards them.

      The ITF has since split up into about 4 organiozations. There are 3 groups in the world all claiming to be ITF, and one who claimed ITF but then changed to GTF (Global TKD Federation). So basically these 4 groups all teach the Choi forms. All 4 pretty much claim Choi is the only true creator of TKD (which is blatantly false).

      But if you want to join an actua;l ITF group search online and find an instructor who is linked with an ITF group and test under them to get certified.

      But I wold recommend just switching th Kukkiwon because I am of course biased and believe that true Korean Taekwondo is in South Korea and certified by the Kukkiwon doing WTF forms.

      After you get your black belt find a Kukkiwon affiliated dojang and learn all the WTF forms fast and test for black belt. You can find people willing to help you out.

      But if you find benefit in your school just stick with it and train there. Its up to you. You can learn both styles of Takwonond. I had an instructor who was Kukkiwon 9th dan from Korea and he also taught me some of the chang hon forms. I have learned all the chang hon forms up to my dan level before. I never got ranked in ITF though, I am only Kukkiwon ranked.

      • Elizabeth Sandoval says:

        Thank you for the information. I will continues with my school as I have great appreciation for the older style he teaches, but later I may learn the Kukkiwon forms and get ranked with them. I am glad to hear that it is okay to be a part of both styles. It’s unfortunate that the ITF is what it is today.

      • White Dragon says:

        Ya if you want to be ITF do it. But I personally think ITF as an organization and its history and “choi worship” is annoying and too much propaganda for me to handle. It is good your sabum does not teach sine wave. Choi was senile or something when he created that concept.
        I personally do not want to be part of an organization started by a guy I believe had narcassistic personality disorder, as well as a north korean communist supporter.

      • Elizabeth Sandoval says:

        I know that my Master Choi is not fan of N. Korea, and while he uses the old forms (minus “Juche”), Gen. Choi is rarely mentioned in our history learnings. Tracing Master Choi’s history, he seems to have learned from Gen. Choi in the military sometime in the late 1940’s- early 1950’s, and left for America with 9th dan before the N. Korea and ITF drama. He’s certainly a unique independent. The Kukkiwon seems like a possible and better future path for sure. I can’t thank you enough for all of the information in your blog on the topics!

      • White Dragon says:

        I am glad someone is getting useful information from me and is not just trying to waste time debating or trying to prove that “the ITF is the only true TKD” as they say…

        Koreans are Kukkiwon and that is their cultural martial art. It is not ITF. But in the past they tried to unite ITF and Kukkiwon together but it didnt work. They just kept pursuing their own interests and fighting.
        The only rank Korea cares about is Kukkiwon. If you do not have that they don’t recognize your rank. Kukkiwon forms are pretty good too and logical. There is some good knowledge in them so adding them with your ITF would give you more stuff to do.

      • Elizabeth Sandoval says:

        P.S. If I ever end up near you I will definitely have to seek you out for training!

      • White Dragon says:

        Well thanks. I am in Alabama. So if you are around that is great. Have a great day!

  19. Michael says:

    Sine wave. Looks ridiculous. Like my dog jumping around in the snow. Up Down Up Down

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